In the third chapter of Catching Fire, Katniss worries about her future on the Victory Tour and having to “pretend†to love Peeta for months at a time. Her prep team arrives for her first appearance prior to the tour and Haymitch provides a damning reality for Katniss. Intrigued? Then it’s time for Mark to read Catching Fire.
The smell of blood…it was on his breath.
What does he do? I think. Drink it? I imagine him sipping it from a teacup. Dipping a cookie into the stuff and pulling it out dripping red.
Ok, well, that was (partially) answered pretty quickly. So the dude’s breath smells of blood? IS THIS GOING TO TURN INTO TWILIGHT. Jay kay, jay kay.
A visit from President Snow. Districts on the verge of uprisings. A direct death threat to Gale, with others to follow. Everyone I love doomed. And who knows who else will pay for my actions? Unless I turn things around on this tour. Quiet the discontent and put the president’s mind at rest. And how? By proving to the country beyond any shadow of a doubt that I love Peeta Mellark.
Yeah, I think I’ll agree with Katniss here: This is not good at all. Collins does a decent job of making us feel just as overwhelmed as Katniss does at the heavy info dump and the emotional dread that President Snow just gave her.
Katniss does have a chance to process what she’s just heard when her mother prepares a bath for her, right before her make-up and wardrobe team arrives. And another one of my “predictions†kinda, sorta comes true.
Since I’ve been home I’ve been trying hard to mend my relationship with my mother. Asking her to do things for me instead of brushing aside any offer of help, as I did for years out of anger. Letting her handle all the money I won. Returning her hugs instead of tolerating them. My time in the arena made me realize how I needed to stop punishing her for something she couldn’t help, specifically the crushing depression she fell into after my father’s death. Because sometimes things happen to people and they’re not equipped to deal with them.
Like me, for instance. Right now.
It’s a sign that Katniss is growing up and is maturing from her admittedly childish response to her mother’s depression. It’s sad that it took the Games to trigger this empathy in Katniss, but she appreciates it all the same: Sometimes you cannot control life. Sometimes it overwhelms you. And you never know how you’ll react until that moment arrives.
None of us are used to the luxury of turning on a tap and having a limitless supply of hot water at our fingertips. We had only cold at our home in the Seam, and a bath meant boiling the rest over the fire.
So no magic dispensary system in their house, but they do have the privilege of constant, hot running water.
In the bath, Katniss takes a moment to think about the effect Snow’s message is going to have on her very-near future. She wonders who, if anybody, she should tell. She immediately decides against telling Gale, who is the most likely to do something to jeopardize the entire thing. As Katniss says it:
Besideds, Gale’s already so angry and frustrated with the Capitol that I sometimes think he’s going to arrange his own uprising.
Fair enough, Katniss. I agree. I don’t see any good coming from Gale in this sense; I would only say something if things got out of hand and it became clear that Gale’s life was in danger. But for now, keeping quiet to him is a smart thing.
She rules against Cinna, who might already be in enough trouble as it is. As for Peeta, it also seems like a bad idea.
Then there’s Peeta, who will be my partner in this deception, but how do I begin that conversation? Hey, Peeta, remember how I told you I was kind of faking being in love with you? Well, I really need you to forget about that now and act extra in love with me or the President might kill Gale.
Yes, that is precisely what you should do. I only make fun because I would probably do worse than Katniss in all of this. That stands to leave only one person who Katniss can tell: Haymitch. And that’s going to be a bundle of fun, isn’t it?
I liked the short story Katniss tells about the lake she used to go to with her father during the summer, especially when she contrasts it with her recent visits. It’s symbolic that she doesn’t share the location with Gale because he represents something different to her. Her memories of her father are idyllic because he died when she was so young. I imagine that she only built upon the myth in her head as her mother’s mental condition worsened.
All that being said, I snickered at the thought that being in a bathtub reminded her of a lake. NOT THAT I EVER REALLY TAKE BATHS WITH ANY SORT OF FREQUENCY, but I don’t associate baths with swimming.
Even underwater I can hear the sounds of commotion. Honking car horns, shouts of greeting, doors banging shut.
They still have cars in the future? I don’t know why this is so fascinating to me. Now that I think of it….they took a train to the Capitol, not an airplane. Why aren’t there planes in the future? THESE ARE THE IMPORTANT THINGS I ASK.
Katniss’s style “entourage,†as she refers to them, arrives to begin work on her before she leaves for the Victory Tour. (By the way, did not expect that to begin so soon either.) I have a gentle indifference to Venia, Octavia, and Flavius. In the same way that Effie is so clueless in her execution, these three seem to generally enjoy Katniss, yet are completely unaware of how offensive they can be. They are self-involved and arrogant about how they make every conversation about themselves, and I still can’t seem to dislike them at all.
They talk about the Quarter Quell, which is Collins’s way of making the reality of the Capitol even more fucked up.
But to make things even worse, this is the year of the Seventy-fifth Hunger Games, and that means it’s also a Quarter Quell. They occur every twenty-five years, marking the anniversary of the districts’ defeat with over-the-top celebrations and, for extra fun, some miserable twist for the tributes. I’ve never been alive for one, of course. But in school I remember hearing that for the second Quarter Quell, the Capitol demanded that twice the number of tributes be provided for the arena. The teachers didn’t go into much more detail, which is surprising, because that was the year District 12’s very own Haymitch Abernathy won the crown.
Well, Haymitch just became a thousand times more fascinating (and mysterious) than he already was. So fourty-seven people had to die for Haymitch to win? WHAT ON EARTH DID HE DO TO WIN?
After they’ve exhausted the topic of the Quarter Quell, my prep team launches into a whole lot of stuff about the incomprehensibly silly lives. Who said what about someone I’ve never heard of and what sort of shoes they just bought and a long story from Octavia about what a mistake it was to have everyone wear feathers to her birthday.
I’m quoting this because, at first, I related to Katniss. I don’t relate to what a lot of people talk about. Sometimes, when I’m on BART and going to work, I’ll end up on a car full of older men in suits talking about the most mundane, boring shit and then I’ll be mad that I forgot my headphones and I think THIS IS WHAT I GET FOR NOT BELIEVING IN GOD OR SOMETHING. Thank you, Financial District.
Except maybe I’m an asshole:
In the mirror, I can see their earnest faces following her every move, their eagerness with it is their turn to try a step. In fact, all three are so readily respectful and nice to my mother that I feel bad about how I go around feeling so superior to them. Who knows who I would be or what I would talk about if I’d been raised in the Capitol? Maybe my biggest regret would be having feathered costumes at my birthday party, too.
It’s another sign that Katniss is maturing right in front of us. How many of us can say we’ve done exactly this when confronted with other people? It takes a conscious effort to accept that people grew up differently and that doesn’t mean what they do is inferior to your experiences. (I think it actually can be, but that’s a different conversation.)
It’s so easy to talk to Cinna, though. Lately we’ve been speaking a lot on the telephone that came with the house. It’s sort of a joke, because almost no one else we know owns one.
Huh. I never thought about phones in Katniss’s world. I suppose there aren’t cell phones either, right? Hmm.
Oh, and for the record, I’ll state it right here: TEAM CINNA FOREVER. Dude is so fierce and awesome HATERS TO THE LEFT. I haven’t figured him out enough to propose a theory as to WHY he is so wonderful to Katniss, so I’ll just accept him for who he is. He even assists Katniss in picking out her “talent,†which is one of the stranger things that’s a part of post-Hunger Games.
Every victor is supposed to have one. Your talent is the activity you take up since you don’t have to work either in school or your district’s industry. It can be anything, really, anything that they can interview you about.
So, it’s what you do so you don’t waste time all day? Ok, I know that’s not what it is. Wait…what is Haymitch’s talent??? SPRING BREAK BROS!
Let’s move on past my immature thought process. They film crew arrives, along with Effie Trinket, to record Katniss’s parts for her “talent†presentation. When she sees Prim hanging around in the kitchen as she’s being interviewed, it triggers a memory of Rue. It’s the first time we hear of her in Catching Fire and it’s still a sad thought. Rue’s death really only has meaning to Katniss and her family and friends. To the rest of the world, she was a plot piece, an entertainment for them on a night of television.
It’s not going to be fun when Katniss goes to District 11 HOW DID I MESS THIS UP.
Katniss gets her first test at her romance with Peeta when they move outdoors into the snow for the shot to represent the beginning of their trip on the Victory Tour. Katniss knows that Snow’s final words to her are serious and the risk is real. So she sells this directly to him.
My face breaks into a hue smile and I start walking in Peeta’s direction. Then, as if I can’t stand it for another second, I start running. He catches me and spins me around and then he slips—he still isn’t entirely in command of his artificial leg—and we fall into the snow, me on top of him, and that’s where we have our first kiss in months. It’s full of fur and snowflakes and lipstick, but underneath all that, I can feel the steadiness that Peeta brings to everything.
I think I’d be sold if I was watching this. It helps to know how complicated this is for Katniss, too.
As badly as I have hurt him, he won’t expose me in front of the cameras. Won’t condemn me with a halfhearted kiss. He’s still looking out for me. Just as he did in the arena. Somehow the thought makes me want to cry.
Man, this is no fun at all. It’s hard enough for Katniss to have to deal with pretending to be in love, especially when she’s not even sure if it’s all an act anyway. Basically, THIS SUCKS.
They leave the district on the train headed to…well, we don’t know yet. After everyone’s headed off to bed, she decides to take the time to speak to Haymitch. And oh lord, I did not expect this in any way at all.
Using a moment where they stop briefly at a station to get away from the possible surveillance on the train, Katniss explains what happened with her and President Snow. Unfortunately, he doesn’t have good news.
“Even if you pull it off, they’ll be back in another few months to take us all to the Games. You and Peeta, you’ll be mentors now, every year from here on out. And every year they’ll revisit the romance and broadcast the details of your private life, and you’ll never, ever be able to do anything but live happily ever after with that boy.â€
I’M SORRY, WHAT?????
The full impact of what he’s saying hits me. I will never have a life with Gale, even if I want to. I will never be allowed to live alone. I will have to be forever in love with Peeta. The Capitol will insist on it.
No, this is seriously fucked up and awful. How is she going to deal with this?
“Do you understand what I mean?†he presses.
I nod. He means there’s only one future, if I want to keep those I love alive and stay alive myself. I’ll have to marry Peeta.
YOU HAVE TO BE KIDDING ME. Holy shit, WHAT IS ALL THIS.
Shit isn’t even real and yet shit is getting so real.
I really like this chapter for Katniss's character development, as you mentioned. She's accepted that good people can still disappoint you or have bad values because of their environment, instead of just mistrusting everyone. It's also sad to see how much she has to change herself (marry Peeta wut) to avoid death. Her lake gives her just one thing she doesn't have to share or worry about the Capitol ruining. So, yeah, THIS SUCKS.
ETA:
Did you mean 11?
WOOPS.
Who knows who I would be or what I would talk about if I’d been raised in the Capitol? Maybe my biggest regret would be having feathered costumes at my birthday party, too.
I love this part and Katniss’ realization of this fact because it’s completely true, and falls along the lines of what pennylwne and I were saying a few reviews back during the first book. We really have no’ idea how we would be, or react to the games, if we grew up in a world that finds it acceptable (the Capitol namely; I know the districts don’t find it so). I like that katniss can sort of forgive the three stylists for their ignorance because she finally sees that it’s not entirely their fault, it’s more a consequence of their upbringing.
Oh, the joys of a forced marriage…
Katniss is right about this – and she has to marry him soon. It's exactly the sam) in our world, where participants of reality shows have to (kind of…) marry their love within MONTHS after they've got to know each other. But still, there is hope for Katniss: The audience will lose their interest within a few years anyway, so she might get a break.
(Naa, my prediction (haven't read the books!!)for the future is: Katpee will start a revolution, abolish the Hunger Games and she will live happily ever after with Gale. And Peeta will die at the end of book 3.)
Ew, Katniss and Gale? D:
Do not want.
for real! team katpee!
Hmmm….that's an interesting point, actually. It makes me think of shows like the Bachelor (which are painfully vapid, in my opinion). Even on shows which shouldn't be romantic, it crops up….does anyone remember that couple on Survivor who got engaged at a season finale?
The whole marriage plot makes sense, story wise, but its also interesting to see how its an exaggeration of current trends.
But then when they break up a few months later, it's a juicy scandal–something people want to read about. And it gets them more publicity, which is what they want. Katniss doesn't have that option, I suppose.
It gets so much more real. You will need a new word to describe how real it is going to get.
so unprepared. SO UNPREPARED. D:
and i love it. (:
For the first time ever, I like Katniss. Didn't see that coming, which means that I too was COMPLETELY UNPREPARED!
So, what I wonder is, will they have something like a Hunger Games All-Stars round at some point, like they do with the Amazing Race and Survivor? Just wonderin'.
My guess for Pressie Snow is that he eats puppies in hot sauce.
Crossover from Mark Watches Doctor Who: I have a feeling that if the Doctor and Rose accidentally ended up at the Hunger Games they would unleash Daleks on the Tributes. Why? Because the GameKeepers are just that messed up.
How horrible to realize you have to marry someone you don't love. 🙁 I feel for Katniss.
but she doesn't not love peeta. she's not sure how she feels!
I feel bad for Katniss and Peeta. It would really suck to marry someone you loved, but that you knew didn't feel the same way. I think that's almost worse.
Yeah. I feel bad for both Katniss and Peeta. Peeta’s choice is also taken away. Now that he knows it was an act on Katniss’ part (even though it may have been less of an act than she let on), it is horrible to feel, at 16, that you are committed to living a lie for the rest of your life.
Having her choices basically shred is awful too. Having said that, is it a fate worse than death? Katniss was certainly developing feelings for Peeta and she didn’t so much put on an act to survive, as to survive together with Peeta. She wasn’t thinking of the long term implications (rightly), but I’m just saying that I don’t think she would have done anything differently.
It'"s not so much that she doesn't love him, It's like Katniss says, the freedom to choose whom you marry, is one of the only freedoms they have left. And now the Capitol has taken even that away from her.
Or the freedom to not marry if you don't want to.
Exactly, not to mention that the media would probably be pretty much expecting them to have kids… and if they keep not having kids it would cause rumors and…
It is a horrible situation, although Katniss has really lost most freedoms once she had to enter the games. She did come to realise that the Capitol now owned her for the rest of her life, whether that was within the arena or beyond. It is just that it’s still startling when she thinks about it. She had her physical appearance altered. She lost all privacy. She lost the mere right to grieve for a dying person, and had to cover her emotions up when Thresh died. She was stripped of the right to not kill another person. She is under constant surveillance. She hasn’t even got the freedom to discuss these feelings with anyone, other than Haymitch, honestly. Although, after hearing “I know about the kiss”, the revelation that her freedom has been dessimated would be deflated. There is a bit of a pattern of Haymitch putting the final puzzle piece in.
Allow me to clarify, I definitely realize that Katniss has the potential to love Peeta or Gale, but it would be impossible for her to love Peeta RIGHT NOW. They've barely had the chance to talk to each other, and certainly not intimately. They've been through some rough roads together, and I'm sure they've got a bond. But love? Not yet, they would need many more conversations to reach that state. And to marry someone without the chance to come by love naturally and make your own choices is very sad. 🙁 And yes, it definitely sucks for Peeta, too. 🙁
Stupid evil government. >:(
I love that Katniss says Peeta brings a STEADINESS to everything. He keeps her grounded and safe even if he's upset with her. Gale is a time bomb (and rightfully so) but I never thought it was what Katniss needed since she's liable to go off any minute herself. And I love Haymitch's "sober" moments when he helps Katniss see the reality of an unreal situation…would she have figured out that she has to marry Peeta without him? Probably not.
At this point I was dying to know Haymitch's story SO MUCH! OMIGOD!!!
Signs of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder:
(from Wikipedia)
A: Exposure to a traumatic event
This must have involved both (a) loss of "physical integrity", or risk of serious injury or death, to self or others, and (b) a response to the event that involved intense fear, horror or helplessness CHECK!
B: Persistent re-experiencing
One or more of these must be present in the victim: flashback memories, recurring distressing dreams, subjective re-experiencing of the traumatic event(s), or intense negative psychological or physiological response to any objective or subjective reminder of the traumatic event(s). CHECK!
C: Persistent avoidance and emotional numbing
This involves a sufficient level of:
* avoidance of stimuli associated with the trauma, such as certain thoughts or feelings, or talking about the event(s); CHECK!
* avoidance of behaviors, places, or people that might lead to distressing memories; CHECK!
* inability to recall major parts of the trauma(s), or decreased involvement in significant life activities; CHECK!
* decreased capacity (down to complete inability) to feel certain feelings; CHECK!
* an expectation that one's future will be somehow constrained in ways not normal to other people. CHECK!
D: Persistent symptoms of increased arousal not present before (don't laugh, arousal does not signify sexual arousal)
These are all physiological response issues, such as difficulty falling or staying asleep, or problems with anger, concentration, or hypervigilance. CHECK!
E: Duration of symptoms for more than 1 month
If all other criteria are present, but 30 days have not elapsed, the individual is diagnosed with Acute stress disorder.CHECK!
F. Significant impairment
The symptoms reported must lead to "clinically significant distress or impairment" of major domains of life activity, such as social relations, occupational activities, or other "important areas of functioning".CHECK!
So really, you can't blame Katniss for having the emotional depth of a teaspoon.
Hahah, what? Her personality hasn't changed since before the games. She had the emotional depth of a teaspoon before the Games ever started.
Well, you could argue that she's had PSTD ever since her father died. Having your dad blown up and then having to raise your family is bound to mess you up in some way.
One symptom of PTSD is night terrors. Didn't her night terrors start before she was chosen for the Games? I'm just sayin'. It explains a lot about her personality if you read the books with the symptoms of PTSD in mind.
See, I don't get that you keep saying that when it just isn't true. She has as much feelings as Harry Potter does. She just doesn't keep talking about what her feelings about just about anything are, which is a rare thing for a female protagonist, which is a huge part of what I like about her.
I totally was thinking the same thing after the first book, she is going to have some massive PTSD. Well, they all are… I think anyone that survives something like that would. Would explain why Haymitch is a raging alcoholic, at any rate.
I love you so much for this.
I always thought her PTSD was really obvious, but I guess my psychology major has biased me.
But yeah, she has obviously had PTSD since her father died and she nearly starved to death.
That's why she's basically been zombie-like save for when she's protecting herself or others since 12.
HAYMITCH'S TALENT WAS PIANO-PLAYING DUH. ;D
And I really liked how much character development we see out of Katniss at the beginning of Catching FIre. I mean, it's been six months since the Hunger Games and she's had a bunch of time to really absorb everything and accept a few, but still. Good Katniss, gooood. Don't be a Bella Swan and go three books without really changing, get pregnant, and then become horribly OOC.
HAYMITCH'S TALENT WAS PIANO-PLAYING DUH. ;D
;snickers; Yeah, I just saw Tangled so when I read that, I immediately thought of Haymitch playing the piano like that outlaw with a hook who wanted to be a musician….it's a funny mental image to say the least 😉
It's a Tangled reference? I haven't seen it, so when I read that I thought of how I've seen several people list Hugh Laurie as their ideal movie-Haymitch and how House often plays the piano while drinking whiskey. Now I can totally picture Haymitch the Pianist. 🙂
During the HG trilogy, I had to stop reading and try to imagine this world. Usually the mental picture forms as I'm reading, but my assumptions and the picture clues given were so disparate that I had to stop and rearrange things.
Are there paved roads? Glass in the windows? Computers in the school? Electronic games for kids? Are their clothes all homemade? Do they have bicycles? Reading glasses? What books have survived?
At first it kind of bothered me to have so much trouble assimilating this world, but then I grew to like it. We always think we're on this road towards greater advancement, understanding, and technology. But in the HG world, things are both morbidly advanced and terribly regressed. I think you could use the disparities in the story to challenge people to look at their own lives and ask: am I in the capital or a district?
(((I keep thinking of the southpark episode when they go into Africa and say, 'we've found the cure for aids! it's money!')))
I have problems imagining this world too. Maybe it's because the differences between the Capitol and the Districts are so many. When you think about it, they seem pretty advanced with things like the showers and the food appearing by touching a button, and yet they travel by train and still use coal?
I agree that it's difficult to reconcile the capitol with the dsitricts. I think the key is that they've managed to get rid of the middle class. All of the advancement happened, and all of the technology exists, but the districts don't have access to it. I guess Katniss could be considered middle class after the Hunger Games, when the Capitol starts supporting her and she has leisure time. But I think, in general, the Capitol is upper class and the districts are lower class.
Isn't the whole idea of a middle class a relatively recent development? I don't want to go around talking like I know about the ENTIRE WORLD THROUGHOUT ALL OF HISTORY, but it seems like in the past, you just had the nobles and the peasants, or whatever. The rich and the poor. It makes sense to me that the middle class would disappear again in the future, especially given the way things are going now in the US… 🙁
There would still be a form of middle class, depending on the part of the world and time you were looking at, but I would believe merchants would qualify as middle class. The nobles wouldn't have to work to sustain themselves, and the lower class would be constantly scrabbling for enough, but merchants or business owners could be wealthy enough to feed themselves and their families, but not necessarily afford to stop working or to have all the luxuries they wanted. (awkward sentence structure is awkward)
So England in the 1600s for instance. Innkeepers, merchants, businessmen, clerks, lawyers etc wouldn't be noble or have the standard of living of the wealthy, but would be considered better off than peasants or farmers that rented land from a noble or factory workers.
Please correct me if I am wrong, someone.
It's a bit more complex than that; but essentially you are correct.
The middle classes have existed since we had class structures, just what the middle class are has changed over time.
I get the impression that in the past the middle class was relatively small, while in the last century or so it has ballooned into something bigger. But maybe it's just the term "middle class" that's new? Wikipedia provides little help on this point. I DON'T KNOW HISTORY OKAY
I always imagined it as kind of steampunk-ish. But yea, I wish Collins would go into more detail about the world and how stuff works.
It's kind of like the difference between first world countries and third world countries, only intentionally (well even more so) enforced.
There's parts in the world, where even getting clean water is a luxuary. Most of the advances we're used to living with would be not even considered in some places of the world because they're too busy surviving to even think of the possibility.
Just think of how many diseases there are that still kill people in some parts of the world, while in the west they're easily taken care of with some simple medication.
The Capitol could bring all those advancements to the Districts, but they don't, because it's easier to control a population that's struggling to even survive.
I can imagine the 2 worlds co-existing, but there are some discrepancies that seem to not be addressed. Growing up in the former USSR, the soviet goverment was sending people into outer space, the major cities were technologically advanced, but my grandparents in a small town in Ukraine, had an outdoor toilet (as in hole in the ground inside a cubicle) and no hot water. However, while the major cities were technologically advanced, the individuals living there certainly did not have the excesses and freedoms of these characters from the Capitol, they still felt the iron hand of the government. In fact, they probably had more awareness and fear of the governments’ capabilities. Conversely, we are told that all the districts are really cut off from the Capitol and each other (makes sense as a way of exerting control), but then Katniss constantly points out their poverty, even before she first goes to the Capitol. Since Katniss and Gale have an enterprise of sorts, they seem to be better off than some in their district. She kind of points out their poverty from our perspective. It reads a little like street kids on the streets of Bombay, fighting to survive, pointing out that they don’t get opportunity to play video games. Also, if we are presented with the people in the Capitol having all this excess and relative freedom, and seemingly more knowledge and awareness of the districts than vise versa, I would think President Snow would have more to fear from someone from the Capitol having alturistic motivation to spark a rebellion.
The other 2 minor points I found strange about district 12; it is mentioned that people go to apothecaries because they can’t afford doctors. In that case, are there even doctors in the district? They would starve themselves if no one went to them. Also, in this grim society, where basic medicines are unaffordable, where bakery bread is a luxury, who is buying all the extravagantly decorated cakes? These are important questions in my life.
"Also, if we are presented with the people in the Capitol having all this excess and relative freedom, and seemingly more knowledge and awareness of the districts than vise versa, I would think President Snow would have more to fear from someone from the Capitol having alturistic motivation to spark a rebellion."
You think the Capitol citizens know more about the districts than the districts do about the Capitol? Huh. I always got the feeling the opposite was true. The districts are forced to watch the tributes' interviews and chariot rides etc, so they see the people in the Capitol looking well fed, partying it up with feasts and fancy clothes etc, and then I imagine that whenever a tribute came home a victor, they would hear stories of how exorbitant life really is in the Capitol.
Meanwhile, all the Capitol citizens ever see of the districts is what's broadcast at the reaping and the victory tour: a bunch of people standing in front of the justice building, which presumably is spruced up for the occasions. They don't see the filthy shacks they live in, can't know what it's like to never have enough to eat. All they see is the "quaint, backwards" way of life that the government present to them.
Just my two cents. o.O
I just assumed that with the freedom they enjoy, is access to more information. Also, the people who work with the HG, like Effie, go out to the districts and know how they operate. This isn't a good analogy, but I was kind of thinking of the Holocaust, and the people in the camps. There were rebellions, and escapes, but the biggest difference was made by people like Schindler. I know this wasn't rebellion, but still. I just think that if they were to form a rebellion, it would be even more important to know about the other districts, and they seem so closed off from each other, and the Capitol seems to be the main common link, and there seems to not be as much policing of information.
Katniss did say that not everybody in District 12 was as poor as those in the Seam. They're just the worst off. I assume that there are wealthier people in D12, like the mayor maybe, who have their own doctors and buy cakes for special occasions.
A lot of people were talking in the reviews about how the love triangle isn't really one, it's more a political thing about how Katniss doesn't get the right to choose who she wants to spend her life with. This is the chapter where Katniss realizes it herself, what a fucked situation she's in. It sucks so much. She can't even choose to be alone if she wanted.
When I first read this book, I didn't really notice the transportation. I didn't realize there were cars. Did Cinna and co. drive from the Capitol? I doubt it, but I get the impression District 12 is small enough to walk, though it may take some time. Maybe the Mayor has a car. As for the planes, they have hovercrafts. I don't know if those things can fly across the entire country though. But I would think they use trains because even though you can see the country, you can't really see the layout of things. The Victors would have too much knowledge in case they ever wanted to start an uprising. I assume they still know very little about each District or the geography of their world.
I found the bits with Katniss' mother very interesting. Yes, she's reconciling with her and I love it, but she's also not completely trusting her. She still feels the need to protect her from the truth. She still treats her mother like a child in a way, not wanting her to know the dangers of the situation they are in.
Anyway….Look at how much more depth out little teaspoon has!
Look at how much more depth out little teaspoon has!
She's practically a tablespoon now!
watch out! She'll become a little teacup soon! =D
I think the lack of planes is easy to explain, by restricting 'flying to the government,they limit the amount of transportation in between the districts and the Capitol. It's far too easy to turn planes into weapons and I'm sure that the Capitol has already considered what could happen if even just a Capitol passenger jet could get taken over in an attempt at rebellion.
So the only kind of 'flying' there is, are the hovercrafts, which I imagine are smaller in size and probably much easier to keep under control.
Even the use of trains is limited to those of the Capitol and the tributes(and even then only when they're under heavy escort (aka supervision)
The only thing I wonder about is if the phones would connect her to people from the other Districts, as they do to Cinna who's in the Capitol, somehow I don't think they would. Not unless they're constantly tapped to make sure the Victors don't use them to talk about rebellion amongst one another.
As for cars, aside of the part where District 12 is pretty small, I think those would only be used by either Peacekeepers or the Mayor, except maybe in larger districts, where the use of them is probably limited to taking people to and from their work places. Except maybe in the richer districts, since it's easier to keep someone under control if they have something to lose.
As a frequent bath-taker, I must say that there have been times (especially when I was younger) that being in a bathtub reminded me of swimming. I love being submerged in water.
Also, (and, sorry, I know this has been brought up before) I think this is one of the reasons I’m not overwhelmingly bothered by the love-triangle thing. Actually, there are two reasons that are exemplified in this chapter. First, both Peeta and Gale seem to be (at this point) legitimately intriguing characters who have appealing qualities beyond physical attractiveness. Second, the love-triangle has been, thus far, used to further expose the damaging effect of government control. At this point, it isn’t about which person Katniss likes more, but about personal freedoms being obstructed by the Capitol.
Okay, I had a lot more to say, and passages to support my points, but then everything was getting really long, and I began to bore myself.
One more thing, though. Now I REALLY want to know what Haymitch’s secret talent is. I feel like this is a job for BradSmith.
*Edit* Sorry, I'm not actually sure what the "this" in sentence one of paragraph two is referring to. I'm pretty sure it's not the bathing comment of the previous paragraph. It may have something to do with the review or this chapter in general. I swear, I really do proofread the things I write. Kind of.
"First, both Peeta and Gale seem to be (at this point) legitimately intriguing characters who have appealing qualities beyond physical attractiveness."
Agree with this. I think Peeta and Gale actually follow a fairly basic love triangle setup with Gale being a friend from the past that may develop into more and Peeta being a (somewhat) mysterious new guy. However, both Gale and Peeta both have compelling connections with Katniss. Gale aided her survival after her father died and looked after her family when she was gone. Peeta helped her survive the hunger games, both physically and emotionally. Contrast this with something crappy like Twilight, where Bella and Edward's bond is that he's hot and she smells good.
What is his skill? Haymitch does what every foul-mouthed, odorous slob does–– he's a writer! 😉
Haymitch's secret talent is totally air-guitar:
<img src="http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd375/DoctorWhoGifss3/Doctor%20Who%20Gifs/doctorguitar2.gif" border="0">
Hovercrafts are advanced planes, aren't they?
Yes. Hovercrafts can travel long distances. Don't they say that the games are located in vastly different environments? Wouldn't they have to be far from the Capitol? Yet they can swoop in and drop parachutes and pick up the bodies of the tributes.
Excellent point, so we know that the Capital has this technology, but seems to be hoarding it for their own dastardly ends.
Yes, I just said "dastardly".
I love the word 'dastardly' 🙂
Right, and in this instance I think the issue is more about suppressing the public and preventing them from improving their situations in life. The doctors in the Capitol were able to fix Katniss' eardrum and Peeta's leg, but people still die from starvation in District 12.
Well that part still happens today, even in US; ie some people spend thousands for their pets' grooming, and some can't afford basic health care, though it's not dependent on regions.
Oh, and I like to think that Katniss's talent for designing clothes is a dig at celebrity fashion lines. "I go out in public not looking disheveled! Buy things with my name on it!"
Haha yes and I like how Cinna told her "you're bringing earmuffs back in style", just like celebrities wear certain things and suddenly that's the new style.
Pssh, they don't even have to look not-disheveled (sheveled?). Or wear an entire outfit.
"They still have cars in the future? I don’t know why this is so fascinating to me. Now that I think of it….they took a train to the Capitol, not an airplane. Why aren’t there planes in the future? THESE ARE THE IMPORTANT THINGS I ASK."
My guess would be that the swiftness and convenience of air travel would hinder the sense of isolation and remoteness that the Capitol wishes to instill in the districts. While a train line is still a connection, I'm sure that it takes days and days to travel between the districts and to the Capitol. Plus, I would bet that only a few people under special circumstances are permitted to ride on these trains, and only under the Capitol's control.
But I would also wager that the government of panem has access to air travel.
I agree, I think the governement has total control of the air. In fact, the air may be the largest part of how they monitor people. They can mutate people and creatures to make horrorific muttations – maybe they mutated the air? Katniss says the hovercrafts appear out of nowhere and the mockingjays are the only ones who can here it. The hovercraft are the only air travel so far, and they are highly unnatural and frightening. … like Snow.
Sometimes, when I’m on BART and going to work, I’ll end up on a car full of older men in suits talking about the most mundane, boring shit and then I’ll be mad that I forgot my headphones and I think THIS IS WHAT I GET FOR NOT BELIEVING IN GOD OR SOMETHING.
LOL LOL LOL. I love public transportation. hahaha. In London during rush hour on the Tube, it tends to be more "OH HAI. MY ASS IS PRESSED UP AGAINST YOUR CROTCH AND MY BOOBS ARE SMOOSHED AGAINST SOMEONE ELSE'S ARMS, BUT WE'RE JUST ALL GOING TO AVOID EYE CONTACT AND BE VERY BRITISH AND LIE BACK AND THINK OF ENGLAND OR SOMETHING". It's pretty hilarious.
I do really really like seeing how much Katniss has matured. She's more aware of other people's feelings, but at the same time that makes it a bit worse for her. It's easier if she could just go through life blindly and selfishly, not caring about others. But instead she DOES care. She is aware that Peeta loves her and feels badly that this situation sucks for him too. It makes all of the Capitol's manipulations even worse for her because she can see how it's affecting those that she cares about, not just herself.
No spoilers-since I've only read the first three chapters:
I was glad to see that Katniss has changed her attitude toward her mother. It was understandable that she was angry at her mother for leaving her with the duties of running the household and raising Prim, but it is also nice to see that she has moved on. Plus, the mother had to be in charge while Katniss was away. Katniss probably saw that her mother was capable after all.
I agree that Katniss should tell Peeta what Snow said. He is her ally after all.
My father died relatively young, and one of my sisters hero worshipped him, even to the point where she tried to find a husband just like her father. Of course she failed, since no one could live up to her imaginary image.
The Quarter Quell is an interesting new aspect to the Hunger Games. I wonder if my prediction will come true and they will use the Quarter Quell to somehow get Katniss into another Hunger Game.
I was not at all surprised that Haymitch said that Katniss would have to marry Peeta. It was what I thought that Snow was suggesting she would have to do to be convincing. I sure hope that this plot changes, because I really don’t like it. Either she marries Peeta because she really loves him, or she brings about a huge and successful uprising without having to marry him, or both.
I really like how Katniss has matured and her character development is really evident in this chapter. When her father died Katniss had to mature and take over as head of her family, and now that she went through the traumatic experience of the Hunger Games, she has had to change emotionally. She is trying to get along with her mother rather than simply tolerate her and constantly blame her for the past, she has to sort out her feelings for Peeta and Gale and at the same time she is going to be constantly interviewed and filmed during the Victory Tour, and she is still trying to figure out who she really is after all of this. I think I'd have the emotional range of a teaspoon too, but she seems to be dealing pretty well considering.
Yay for Cinna. He was my favorite character in the series. Gale was good too, but felt like there could of have been more of him in the series. Katniss just bugged me.
Really? Gale just bugged me. Katniss was well written, even if I don't think we'd get along IRL. I just want MOAR Peeta. Also, more Greasy Sae. And Foxface. And Rue. And Prim and Mrs. Everdeen.
Same here, Gale is just a bunch of words for me, not a character. I love Katniss though.
Hmm, Gale has always been one of my favorite characters in these books. I started liking him through Katniss's memories of him during the Games. XD Of course, I didn't start to really enjoy him as a character until Catching Fire. Peeta annoys me more than Gale does, although I can understand why people prefer Peeta to Gale.
Thank you for summing up my shared feelings on the boys. :>
Greasy Sae forever.
LOL, I'm pretty sure Katniss is being facetious when she's imagining Snow drinking blood! Keep reading!
And this is exactly why Gale had to be in the story. To represent the conflict that Katniss is feeling about her feelings about Peeta. If there wasn't another potential person she could be in love with. It's easier to make this a strict love story, with her easily falling in love with Peeta (and considering how much of a cliché that is in fanfic, I assure you it does help to show Gale as the other options she should be having, but won't have because of the Capitol.
Esp. since this is a YA book.
By having Gale in the picture, there's a clear hint to the readers that what the Capitol is doing is wrong. And all without turning Peeta into a bad guy.
I don't know, I think it could have worked as well without Gale having to exist as a romantic monkey wrench. Katniss staying single because of her own scruples seems like a perfectly viable option.
To you, maybe, but keep the audience in mind.. In most YA, the option would be either, 'situation makes them find their love for one another' or 'Peeta is really evil' and that's why she has to get away from him.
Adding Gale clarifies the issue to the young girls reading, who'd be wondering why Katniss would have so much trouble with 'having to marry the boy who loves her'
I get that, but I think it would be a really interesting idea to have Kat decide NOT to get married. It would be really innovative to show that she doesn't need to ultimately find a mate, that she's fine with being on her own.
That would be interesting. And I can't say more since well… spoilers.
MOAR HAYMITCH! I want tp know more about his quell. And him in general. And mark's reaction to him.
And I love how the love triangle is just part of the political opression Katniss faces rather then "OMG WHO'S IS LIKE, HOTTER?!" She doesn't GET to choose, panem and it's president chose for her.
"And I love how the love triangle is just part of the political opression Katniss faces rather then "OMG WHO'S IS LIKE, HOTTER?!" She doesn't GET to choose, panem and it's president chose for her."
This is exactly why I bought the inclusion of the Gale/Katniss/Peeta "love triangle" (for lack of a better phrase) in this series better than I do in most YA novels. The fact that the political atmosphere is dictating Katniss' choices adds so much more interest than "Choice A is cute… but Choice B is cuter – and he has a hot car!" This also makes me loathe the Capitol and Snow all the more.
(I could say more, but not without revealing spoilers, so I will save that discussion for later).
What bothers me is the implications behind the forced marriage. Mostly: Will they be forced to have KIDS?!?!?
Could you imagine? They're both pretty young, but if marriage is already a topic then children probably aren't far behind, especially if the life expectancy isn't very high where they live. But, neither or them will want to. Even Peeta, who likes Katniss, won't because he knows the Capitol is forcing them and thinks Katniss doesn't like him. Ugh. Enforced sex. That's just…UGH.
Also, what will happen to the kids? Aside from growing up in a loveless situation under the public's eye, which would mess up anyone. Katpee are exempt from the Games now, does the same go for their families? I assume so, which would then isolate them from the rest of the district.
I don't really know where this book is headed. Is the plot going to be based around their emotional/personal problems, with little clips of the arena they watch to give it some action? Weird, because she's very good at fight scenes so you'd think she'd want to keep them.
No one is exempt from the Games except the winners themselves, I think. So no, Katniss' children would still be eligible.
D: No wonder she's freaking out then. Best way to get revenge on her would be to attack her family, and now they have the perfect way of doing it. Though Snow seems to want her to suffer sooner…
I don't know. I'm going to stop guessing.
Are Victors actually exempt, though? I just assumed that the fact that winners don't compete twice had more to do with the low odds of the same person being selected again, the age factor (winners are more likely to be older and therefore closer to ineligibility) and the fact that they'd have fewer entries (one less than a similar person of the same age, and considerably less than poorer people).
No, the victors are definitely exempted. It's one of the things that you win if you survive, immunity. "Hey, we're gonna ruin your life, but at least you won't have to do it again!"
They were forced to kill kids, as others have been forced for 74 years, so being forced to marry, not too much of a stretch. The main difference, is that this specific situation is unprecedented. Either way, even the winner of the HG, will never have a normal life. If Katniss already thinks she doesn’t want to marry and bring children into this world, how would you be after years of preparing kids and watching them die a gruesome death? Could you marry and have a life? Could you connect to another human being in any semblance of normality?
I imagine that Mark isn't going to think "juggling poodles" or "goldfish swallowing" are somehow backwards spoilers. Due to, amongst other things, the extreme lack of poodles and goldfish. And I would love to hear your ideas.
Me too. I feel like I'm going to have to come up with some of my own. I currently vote for "juggling poodles" as favorite.
Juggling goldfish AND poodles????
Also WHERE IS BRADSMITH
SECONDED. His sarcastic mantle is too heavy.
I think he's avoiding the blog until he can get his hands on "Catching Fire" so he can form his own opinions.
Yes, at last, I have used the Target gift certificate from my dad to buy the hardcover version. The epic mystery that befuddled you all is now brought to its thrilling conclusion.
SOME PEOPLE JUGGLE GEESE
dammit, like five people beat me to this
Some people juggle geese! Hand to God. Baby geese. Goslings!
Some people juggle geese!
Don't get Haymitch started on his prized show cats.
Bonsai enthusiast; dollhouse furniture-maker a la Lester Freamon; and since you mentioned goldfish swallowing, it reminded me of that other 20s fad: pole-sitting. Can't you just imagine Haymitch, drunk and tottering on the one telephone pole in town? Beautiful.
…
I'm in love with said pole-sitting image. XD
Oooh Mark, I'm gonna disagree w/ you about Katniss and her mom!
"It’s a sign that Katniss is growing up and is maturing from her admittedly childish response to her mother’s depression."
Granted, I think anyone would be heavily depressed if they had an exploding husband. And not everyone can be a Hazelle, on the streets and looking for work a week after giving birth. But who should have the luxury of wallowing in sorrow when you've got two starving, underage kids to care for? Especially when your gov't wouldn't blink twice if they actually did starve to death (damn Capitol!)
You can't blame Katniss (who was essentially orphaned at 11) for hardening her heart against her mom. It's a natural defense. Otherwise, her own grief might've made it impossible to care for herself and her sister.
Other than that…I'm with you on everything else! I wonder what happens next…
But I think the whole point here is that Katniss hardened against her mom because she was privileged enough not to have suffered from depression. You never know what triggers it to kick in and, as someone who has suffered from it off and on for years, I know how all-encompassing it feels.
The thing is that Katniss starts to feel the way her mother did and she understands why her mother reacted the way she did and, most importantly, that her mom could not control it.
I also appreciated that Katniss was eventually able to empathize w/ her mom. But I don't think Katniss ever believed her to be a lesser person because of her depression (which she wasn't b/c you're right; it can be extremely crippling). Katniss just felt abandoned, and worse, her little sis was abandoned, leaving her no choice but to start thinking of her mom as a child in order not to need her.
I think we see simply see Katniss' reasons for hardening against her mom in a different way, and that's cool. We both agree about MOAR Haymitch and really, what else matters? B)
I agree that it’s a natural response for Katniss to feel that way, but depression is not a “luxury,” it is a disease. You don’t get to say “oh, I have things to do? Well I’ll just stop being depressed then.” I wish it were that easy.
true, but it's easy for us to see that, it's another for a child, which is what Katniss still was, to see that same thing, when she has to keep herself and her sister from starving. Still it's great that as Katniss develops, as she grows up, that she comes to realize this as well.
You said it more eloquently than I did. I definitely don' t believe depression is a luxury…it's more about looking at it from Katniss' POV, as the kid who was too overwhelmed being the sole provider to immediately grasp the severity of her mother's condition. I just don't see that as childish as much as a pretty sad situation for all involved IMO.
Yeah, that's why I said it's a natural response for Katniss. I just take issue with the word "luxury" being used for depression.
I love the growth of Katniss' relationship with her mother. I like that she has matured enough to realize that she doesn't always need to be the parent in the relationship. Allowing her mom to take that position back is a huge step for her. I love the quote that you quoted. For some reason I thought it was in the last chapter and you had missed it and I was sad. But then this review made me happy!
Hi Mark. I started reading this book yesterday and I couldn't put it down. I finished it today and all I can say is: You. Are. Not. Prepared. Brain. Fuck. Mind. Explosion.
It's going to be so much fun reading your posts from now on.
I was also impressed by Katniss' maturation in this chapter. She's a lot less judgmental now, both to her mother and to her designers. I also really like that we got a little bit more information on Haymitch. His character intrigues me.
Something else was brought to my attention this chapter. This is not a criticism of the book at all, but just a reason that I'm not as fond of Katniss as I probably should be. Katniss is not very bright. She's really good in situations that depend on her fight or flight instincts, and she's good at hunting, of course. However, when it comes to collating information and reasoning through things, she has a real problem. I think she's aware of this, herself, which is why she depends so much on Haymitch (and Cinna) to explain things to her.
Katniss is not very bright. She's really good in situations that depend on her fight or flight instincts, and she's good at hunting, of course. However, when it comes to collating information and reasoning through things, she has a real problem.
UPVOTED A ZILLION TIMES FOR TRUTH. People keep insisting that Katniss is intelligent because you have to be to survive in her world, but that's just not how it works. She isn't all that smart, she just has a very particular skill set, and when you take her out of "RUN HIDE DEFEND KILL" mode…well, there's a reason my mantra during these books was "Oh, for God's sake, notice things and learn from them, child!"
I love the character to death, and I do think she's at least a bit smart, but…yeah, literally the least perceptive person to ever have been conceived by the minds of human kind.
(Bella and Smeyer are just bad mass hallucinations)
Not only would they have to go in the reaping, as Katniss herself thought of in the Hunger Games, children and family members of Victors have an out of proportion higher chance of being picked as Tributes.
A higher chance??? That seems a little unlikely if they're names aren't entered in as many times as others. So it's definitely rigged then, at least when they want it to be. I can understand that. After all, how dramatic would it be if the children were chosen? Good television, that. The Capitol would love it.
Spoiler, watch talking about the next chapter please. I know it was an accident though.
I need to reread, thought for sure that was in the last book.
She says that being a Victor will never guarantee her children's safety, not that her children are more likely to be unsafe.
TEAM CINNA FOREVER!
I love how much Katniss matures in this chapter! I started feeling way closer to her as a character.
The "love triangle" also starts to make a whole lot of sense here. It's not about a choice between two boys. Gale represents what she might have had if the Hunger Games had never happened. Peeta is the choice the Capitol has picked for her, who she might want herself. But if she wants him, is that her giving in to the Capitol? Not choosing Peeta, even if she loves him, would be an act of rebellion in itself. This is why this "love triangle" is really interesting in my opinion.
FUCK YEAH CINNA
That is all.
He "got off" at the next stop, did he?
I apologize for this, my mind is in the gutter permanently.
On a lighter note, your prediction about Effie’s wig chage is right! She changed her wig from pink to orange! Congrats Mark!
When Katniss ran to Peeta, I felt so sad for Peeta. That he knows this is all a show but he's still genuine about loving her. Peeta is such a constant character. I like him best.
I’m typing this on my crappy phone so someone may already have pointed this out, but they do have “hovercraft.” Also, high-speed rail > planes in almost every possible way.
I love that it takes the repeated destruction of the country, by man and nature, to finally bring high-speed rail to America.
I forget it's high speed rail. I was thinking Amtrak in my head and Amtrak is SO SLOW here in California.
SO YES, HIGH SPEED RAIL > AIRPLANES
Yeah, I imagined it like the Hogwarts Express when I first read it, and then I realized that they had probably improved things. I hope it's faster than Amtrak on the East Coast, too.
The brand-new governor of Wisconsin just killed high-speed rail plans in this state. I hate him with the passion of a thousand fiery suns. DIAF SCOTT WALKER.
I heard about that. Also that Florida is one of the states that's getting your money, and that their new governor, Rick Scott, wants to kill their high-speed rail plans. What the hell is wrong with people named Scott!?
“Do you understand what I mean?” he presses.
I nod. He means there’s only one future, if I want to keep those I love alive and stay alive myself. I’ll have to marry Peeta.
Well, duh. I'm a little disappointed with this "stunning revelation" because it seemed so obvious to me. 🙁
I've felt a number of "stunning revelations" to Katniss have been pretty obvious to me, for instance, everything to do with Peeta's feelings, but I can't tell whether making Katniss a little slow on the uptake is character development or an expository device for the slower readers.
To be fair, I feel like deciphering other people's feelings is a lot easier when you're looking at them from an unbiased 3rd person standpoint instead of in regards to yourself. I can't count how many times I have sat around worrying about what so-and-so thinks about me or whatever, and my friends pipe up with an exasperated "well OBVIOUSLY…" And vice versa!
maybe the don't allow planes in the districts because that would allow people the freedom to travel? Also same with cellphones? My guess is in an oppressive society you don't want people really exchanging information to have an uprising.
AMAZING POINT. upvote upvote upvote
I'm reading along with Mark and so far i like Catching Fire much better than THG(even though i've only read 3 chapters). But i'm going to make a prediction. i think we will find out exactly how Haymitch won the hunger games. i think we will learn more about Haymitch in general.
Who says boozin' isn't a talent?!
TOUCHE!
Haymitch's talent: 'Watch how much I am drinking and not dying! Now I am going to walk near this OPEN FLAME candle and not catch fire! Wow!'
"and not catch fire! Wow!"
Pun intended?
I believe Haymitch is a ~mixologist~.
I was a bit ambivalent about the whole marriage reveal at first (it seemed like too much of a caricature to me), but then I remembered that there are lots of gossip blogs and the like dedicated to celebrity couples, where people express their ~deep, heartfelt dismay~ that their favorite celeb couple has broken up/filed for divorce.
With that in mind, I have to hope that maybe Katniss and Peeta will eventually get reality-TV savvy and orchestrate a melodramatic, messy public breakup. The viewers would still get their entertainment, it would free up Katniss's choices (even if she does get with Peeta, it could be written off as a rocky love-hate relationship), and as long as people are convinced that she was in love with Peeta before, it wouldn't make her earlier actions seem rebellious. Plus, it would be a really funny thing to see them fake.
– “The smell of blood … it was on his breath.” pffft. Collins, you have my approval, don't lose it with this melodrama. Please.
– “What does he do? I think. Drink it?” Of course not, he doesn't sparkle and promote misogyny 24/7 so he couldn't possibly be a vampire.
– We're back to Kat worrying about playing for the cameras again? Ugh.
– You know Kat, confiding in your mother would not be the worst thing in the world right now.
– “How I will always have to protect her.” You'll have to protect her because you keep her locked out of the loop.
– “Because sometimes things happen to people and they're not equipped to deal with them.” Wait. Is that…character growth? THE LEGENDS WERE TRUE!
– I'm starting to notice what I think will become Kat's biggest Character Flaw, she's always trying to protect others because she sees them as helpless. Gale's in trouble and she's not going to try and warn him because she assumes he'll act irrationally.
– “…all contributing to the impression that I've literally shocked her.” Um…symbolism?
Quarter Quell? Quoi?
– Haymitch won Super Mega Deathfest? That's pretty intense. Can we get a book about him please?
– “Who knows who I would be or what I would talk about if I'd been raised in the Capitol?” Wait wait wait. Is that Kat showing…perspective? LE GASP
– Is Kat wearing ermine fur? PETA would have a fit. Yes I do feel bad for making that pun STOP JUDGING ME
– “…I can feel the steadiness that Peeta brings to everything.” The more I think about it, the more one sided this whole triangle is. It's been made pretty obvious by now that Kat and Peeta a *~*TWU WUBZ*~*
– Now THAT is a nice little twist. Unless shit changes, Kat's essentially in an arranged marriage with are good old bread boy, for fear President Freezerburn has them killed. But then again, wouldn't the whole rebellion thing die down with nothing to fan the flames for a few years?
Overall, this was a pretty decent chapter. It was nice to see Kat had grown a bit after the games, rather than it just being a shitty part of her life. The idea of the Quarter Quell is definitely interesting, and I DEMAND MOAR HAYMITCH. Unfortunately I have a sneaking suspicion that through some act by the Capitol, Katpee will find themselves inside the Quarter Quell as participants, and I really hope it doesn't.
Grade: "C+"
Can I tell you that you are one of my favorite commenters? I love your use of quotes to support the points you make. I wish my students could handle this concept. However, I do often wonder about your grading system. How do you come up with these grades? Do you use a rubric? You should make one. Also, how have you developed a baseline for your grades? What would an "F" chapter look like? What about an "A+" chapter? Wow. Sorry. See, Mark wants to know about how the technology of HG works, and I need to know the intricate details of your grading system. Why am I like this?
To conclude: please have more puns. I think we need to collectively bring puns back.
As far as my grading system works, it's mostly just the general impression I get from the chapter on its own. If I find myself engrossed in the happenings, particularly impressed by something that makes up the bulk of the chapter, or just really enjoy what's going on, I give it a higher one, taking in my overall impression of the chapter. The "C" grades are mostly just chapters that are sort of middling of dull. If I find myself acutely aware that I'm just reading a story or seeing a plot point, it usually gets a "C" or somewhere thereabouts. I've yet to give a chapter here an "F" but the lowest I gave was a "D" for when Kat drugged Peeta, simply because I found it disgusting. I pretty much save the low grades for stuff I find offensive or wanky, which thankfully has been kept to a minimum so far.
I really like your comments too. I was wondering if you could think of any examples of an A chapter or of an F chapter from the stuff that Mark has read so far. Sorry, I know that's a weird thing to ask, and I won't be offended at all if you don't answer me. I just think that it would give some persepective as to what you think is cream of the crop awesomeness and what is made o' fail/ die in a fire suck.
I agree. A little Mark. A little Lossthief. My day is complete.
pretty much!!!
I tend to find your comments interesting, even if I do tend to disagree with pretty much most of what you say 🙂
Well I'm glad you find my strange ramblings interesting, and if you have any dissenting opinions, feel free to share them. I love having discussions about various bits of fiction and I'm always likely to interpret something wrong, so don't to call me out if I make a mistake!
I'm actually always more interested in discussing stuff with people I disagree with, than with people who feel the same way. Because it forces me to take a closer look at my own opinions as well and find reasons to substantiate them beyond saying 'because that's how I feel'.
In fact, arguing with people about the books, only makes me appreciate them even more and see more depth in them than I would if people were just constantly saying how great they were 🙂
I don’t see why needing to pretend to be madly in love now means that they have to continue to pretend to be in love forever. Having a messy breakup in a few years’ time would be realistic, and though it would pique the Capitol’s gossip interest, it wouldn’t jeopardize their two-winner alibi (“madly in love” doesn’t tend to last a lifetime, you know).
[WORDPRESS HASHCASH] The poster sent us ‘0 which is not a hashcash value.
Personally nothing in this chapter makes me change my view that is constantly hating how Katniss treats her mother. This 'character growth' just doesnt sound sincere to me, it sounds contrived, patronising and pity-driven. I dont buy it and I dont like it.
But hey, broken record, I am becoming one.
So I will also say Haymitch in this chapter is my absolute favourite. I dont think Collins addresses properly how sharp he really is. She pushes the fact that he's a drunk in our face, we assume because of what he's been through in the past, yet as a character he shows a remarkable amount of intelligence which is never acknowledged. Haymitch is awesome sauce on toast.
Just while Im on a Collins-could-have-done-better rant, it irked me on a slightly personal level how Katniss is so ready to accept Cinna completing her 'talent' for her. You dont steal the work of your friends and your friends should know better than to offer. A friend should help you out once you've tried your best, not do it for you like a slave. I was the one in school who always did her homework and the one who everyone else asked to copy from the morning it was due in. It makes me so angry when people steal others work and make no effort of their own. /end rant/
I love Cinna! I wonder why he's not as crazy or eccentric as most of the people from the capitol?
Because he chooses not to be.
His +9 in Fabulosity combined with that +2 in Fierceness actually makes him immune to the Capital's +10 Ignorant Dickishness.
Jaria,
I know you were just joking around, but Mark bringing up Haymitch's talent is starting to make me think now… Like OUTSIDE THE BOX and all. I mean, he probably didn't start drinking until 5 or so years after winning, right? I don't know. I just like to think that he really did try helping the D12 tributes for a few years, but it got unbearable so he started to drink. That being said, he would have had to do a talent… that wasn't boozing since he wasn't a drunk then…
Do you get where I'm going with this or should I shut up? Shut up? Okay. :S
It's really hard for me not to post a spoilery comment, so I'm just gonna say that I totally feel you with respect to boring people on BART. BUT it kinda makes up for it during Pride, which is basically the funnest BART ride ever. 🙂
I'm deeply saddened by the fact you didn't comment on the line 'Get dressed, you worthless thing.' I d not know why, but it is my favorite line in the series. it just morphs Cinna into and old Southern grandma in my head.
OMG OMG. I am clearly a failure for not pointing this out. HOW CAN I SAY I'M TEAM CINNA AND MISS THAT?
That was one of my favorites too. It also showed how comfortable she and Cinna are with each other that they can insult each other as friends.
The smell of blood…it was on his breath.
What does he do? I think. Drink it? I imagine him sipping it from a teacup. Dipping a cookie into the stuff and pulling it out dripping red.
i love how katniss does not underestimate snow – she views him as evil enough to have this image of him. it's one thing for readers to be terrified of snow, but for some reason it hits harder when the characters themselves know just how creepy the "villans" are. of course, this is the man that allows the hunger games to continue, so it's not a shock or anything, but for some reason i just really enjoy that katniss has this image of snow.
None of us are used to the luxury of turning on a tap and having a limitless supply of hot water at our fingertips. We had only cold at our home in the Seam, and a bath meant boiling the rest over the fire.
when reading these books, i often wonder just how disgusted katniss is with her situation. she is probably happy to have made life easier for prim, but she must feel so awful every time she turns the hot water on and knows that gale and almost every other person in district 12 has to boil water to take showers. even when the capitol "rewards" her for what she has done in the games, it is still punishing her.
Oh man, I just flashed back to that episode of Buffy where Spike says he dips Weetabix in his blood. Ahahaha. Okay. Carry on.
Oh God, it works for all Will Ferrell roles:
<img src="http://i54.tinypic.com/23vnwuo.jpg">
(Don't judge, Will Arnett and Amy Poehler are great.)
Because it was inevitable– Haymitch took up his own musical instrument
<img src="http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e137/metalinmyveins/thCowbell.gif"/>
Perhaps he designs fashion, like Katniss
<img src="http://i43.tinypic.com/fvl46p.jpg" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
LMAO. He eventually discovered his true skill lies in jazz flute
<img src="http://i52.tinypic.com/2hozous.jpg" />
Edited because I was laughing too hard…
You beat me to the punch, but– MORE JAZZ FLUTE
<img src="http://i842.photobucket.com/albums/zz344/leftish/random/tumblr_le13hxiFj31qce7cdo1_500.gif"/>
or maybe Haymitch took up Animal Wrestling
<img src="http://i842.photobucket.com/albums/zz344/leftish/random/raccoon.jpg">
Okay, you win!
We've done good work here, today.
Thank you for indulging me and for stopping me. It is just once I started looking at Will Ferrell's roles EVERYTHING WORKS.
Haha, thanks for replying and preventing me from editing in Haymitch looking for sponsors in the Capitol. BUT I CAN'T HELP MYSELF.
<img src="http://oi40.tinypic.com/jk7hv6.jpg" />
You still win for cowbell!
And I think everyone should join the party!! There are very few times that we get to have gif parties anymore.
In all seriousness, how could Haymitch's talent be anything other than master of the dance?
<img src="http://i25.tinypic.com/mr2qna.jpg" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic">
I LOVE YOU GUYS FOREVER.
Unfortunately this is it for me today, but
BEHOLD! What if Haymitch took up ping pong?
<img src="http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_le5thcF4V81qdgsypo1_500.jpg">
PLEASE TELL ME WILL FERRELL IS GOING TO BE CAST AS HAYMITCH FOR THE MOVIE. SOMEONE MAKE THAT HAPPEN.
Well, he DOES live in D12, and you know how them D12-ers are about dancing. (srsly, this is canon!!!)
OMG! You made my day with Will!
Yay! I can read past Chapter 3, finally!
I have a love/hate relationship with this chapter, because I can literally see no other way for Katniss to get out of living happily ever after with Peeta and the logical part of my brain is like, 'omg shut up Katniss and just do it, keep your head down and stop causing shit."
But the REBELLLL side of my brain is like, "UPRISINGS. FUCK YEAH. TAKE THAT GOVERNMENT DOWN, BITCH. YOU GO, GIRL."
so idk what to think about this chapter.
It is kind of confusing, Mark. I mean, it IS set in the future. This is the first time we've heard of cars and telephones (I think?). I may be the odd one out here, but when I picture the future, I imagine people travelling via floating bubbles or flying cars or something from Tron.
floating bubbles would be excellent.
Floating bubble is how Effie travels. Because in my head, she is Kristen Chenoweth, and therefore Glinda. 😉
omg Cheno would make an aces Effie.
omg BRILLIANT.
Yeah. I pictured her as Kristen Chenoweth, too! But I forgot about that floating bubble part in the play. Thank you. Haha
The non-futuristic things you mentioned reminded me of a book I’ve read. It was set in the distant future and it lacked the futuristic qualities and seemed like it was set during the 1600s or way earlier.
That sounds so interesting! Which book is it?
Gathering Blue by Lois Lowry.
Oh, I remember that book from middle school! I read it after my class was required to read "The Giver"
You should read The Messenger because it follows the events that happened in "Gathering Blue", if you haven't already.
Oh I've read all of them. "Messenger" was my favorite.
I remember reading The Giver. We spent, like, a whole class unable to get past 'stirrings'. We were a mature class. 😛
GOOD STORY. "Gathering Blue" was the book that got me hooked on Distopia settings.
Agreed. Not only would it be regressive storytelling but really annoying from a reader's perspective.
ZOMG! President Snow is a vampire?! I wonder if he sparkles…
i do love the emotional growth here. and yay cinna.
also peeta looking out for katniss is really beautiful.
Effie, Venia, Octavia, and Flavius will forever remind me of puppies. They're really damn adorable and excitable.
The way I figured the transportation and communication thing was: in the Capitol they do have easy local transportation and communication, but they have no need or desire to travel to or even talk to people in the districts. AND the government has every reason to prevent people in the districts from traveling or communicating easily. It is easier to divide and conquer if you prevent the conquered from being able to easily join forces.
The way I see it, cell phones didn't really improve our lives here in the USA all that much because we already had easy cheap communication available, but in countries like India and Turkey (any place with a poor infrastructure) you could see that they were revolutionary, seriously empowering to small businesses. The Capitol is not at all interested in empowering anyone in any of the districts.
FANTASTIC COMMENT. But it's true. The freedom to move about is a big, big thing. It's a reason the anti-immigration movement is so irritating to me. It's main proponents want to go everywhere, but want those not born where they were to stay where they are.
Which is esp. weird coming from any white person in the US, since pretty much all of them descend from immigrants.
Not just immigrants but also occupiers, colonizers, aggressors. Like, immigrants are taking our jobs? WE TOOK THE ENTIRE COUNTRY FROM PEOPLE WHO ALREADY LIVED THERE. WE HAVE NO RIGHT TO TALK.
Not to mention that many Mexicans are descended from North American Indians, so their ancestors were here long before ours (white people's)…
TEAM CINNA FOREVER. Dude is so fierce and awesome HATERS TO THE LEFT. I love this. And Cinna. And this blog.
Katniss…DID YOU CRY IN THE BATH??!!!!
<img src="http://i1029.photobucket.com/albums/y358/tiffram/gif/tumblr_lbssbt9Io71qdw1bro1_400.gif" border="0">
just like danradz…
oh the Capitol, all for the love of fashion.
lolz. gotta love them…
<img src="http://i904.photobucket.com/albums/ac247/headstem/GIF%20PARTY/ekg6qtjpg.gif" border="0">
<img src="http://i362.photobucket.com/albums/oo63/teluhla17/GIF/opb42d.gif" border="0">
BUT CINNAAAA YOUZAHHH BOSSSS
<img src="http://i962.photobucket.com/albums/ae108/Emqtpi21/My%20Gifs%20to%20Me/tumblr_l5krl9Ufiv1qb3pc6.gif" border="0">
and HAYMIMTCHHHHH MAH DRINKING BUDDY, WAY TO BE A BAMF
<img src="http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee268/talking_mime/NevilleMBoM.gif" border="0">
Hahahaa, I love that macro with Neville! I always think, "that must have been a fun part to play." Sad that he didn't get more view time in the movies. 🙁
GUYZ – I JUST HAD A MAJOR BREAKTHROUGH!
Okay, okay, maybe it won’t excite anyone else, but hear me out.
Each year, twenty four tributes are taken, and the Hunger Game Katniss/Peeta won in was the seventy fourth. I was trying to explain to my sister how small a percentage of people survive, so I set out to create a basic fraction. Then I realized:
To date, there have been 1776 victims in the HG including the winners.
1776 – the year that our revolution began.
Katniss is player 1776, the girl who has (apparently) threatened to ignite a revolution that could change the world. I am impressed by Collin’s historical reference. XD
Except that on the Quell that Haymitch was apart of there were double the contestants so it's actually 1800 all together…BUT I admire your ability to put it all into a fact such as this 🙂
Aw, you're right. Good catch! Well, I calculate wrong, but that would have been pretty cool. So 1726 kids have died, and 75 have lived through the games. So sad!
So I've been reading along with you Mark (which I've enjoyed this far!). I have a question, that I'm not sure if anyone has proposed (I don't read all of the comments)… Has Prim spoken… AT ALL?? Siriusly you guys, is there any dialogue between her and Katniss whatsoever? We are led to believe that protecting Prim is one of Katniss's number one priorities. Other than being her sister, why is their relationship important? I get that protecting your family is important… but how believable is it when the relationship doesn't exist on page? Rue has depth because she reminds Katniss of Prim. That's all good and well, but what sort of depth does Prim have? Please put me in my place if I'm way off base here and I somehow have missed all this throughout the first book and up until now. Maybe this is addressed in the future too for all I know.
Anyways, just sharing my two cents. Mark, I've been reading you since Twilight, but never posted, although I wish I did throughout HP. You're an awesome writer and you've made me think twice about a lot of stuff!!
For some reason it surprised me that his Hunger Games were 24 years ago. I got the impression he was younger for some reason. I guess he'd be in his late 30s/early 40s during this book? I guess that makes sense when I think about it.
POINTLESS COMMENT
I do wonder what his talent is, though. Besides DRINKIN'.
Oh Mark, btw, I'm not sure if you read webcomics or not, but I recently discovered one that I think you might really enjoy for personal reading. It's called "Blip" and it's one of the strangest, yet brilliant pieces of web fiction I've come across.
EVERYONE SHOULD READ IT: http://blipcomic.com/pages/archive/
You guys, I'm such a Capitol citizen. I'm not even that into Katpee but when Katniss describes their kiss I think, "Aww that sounds so romantic, with the snow and the fur and the earmuffs!" I momentarily forget that it's staged for the cameras and she doesn't have a choice etc etc.
Plus back in real life I'm annoyed that I had to go to three Christmases and OMG I can't believe what so-and-so said and crap what will I wear for New Year's Eve and what is taking Mark so long to post his next review?? Despite the fact that there's messed up shit going on all over our country/the world.
I mean, I get that everyone has a Worst Thing That's Ever Happened To Them, and it's traumatic even if it's nothing compared to someone else's Worst Thing, but I still want to smack the Capitol people/myself frequently when reading this book. Katniss is more understanding than I am (I have the emotional depth of one of those little tiny spoons that go in little tiny sugar bowls).
I relate with you. While I at first really criticized the Capitolians, I realized I'm not far off.
Things like who said what and where am I going this weekend and omg guess what happened at this party are the things I care about and discuss. I mean, yes I enjoy deep conversations and such but that's not always the most fun discussion and I do happen to prefer friendly discussions to serious, philosophical conversations from time to time.
Plus, something that comes up later that the capitol has, I was like OMG WANT when I heard about it. (and then was promptly ashamed of myself)
just wondering…
what kind of laws does Panem have?
how do they justify making murder illegal?
or is it even illegal?
hmmm.
The same way countries with a death penalty justify it.
That sounds facetious. Let me explain.
The central tenet of any country which allows the sate to decide life and death is that killing is not murder if it's performed by the state. The games cannot be murder; they are sponsored and controlled by the state. If private citizens were to do similar, it would be murder.
The state decides the law, and so decides what is murder and what is legal killing. They simply make this legal killing.
Whether or not you think that is the author making a dig at the death penalty is up to you… and bare in mind I come from a country where we do not carry out the death penalty.
Winning the Hunger Games – especially for Katniss – doesn't actually bring a life of luxury, apart from the material wealth. The Capitol still controls her life, and I can't imagine how awful that would feel. Just like having the Victory Tour midway between the Games, having to be a mentor would make the victors relive their horrors every year.
HAYMITCH FOREVER
Peeta is too good for Katniss- poor Peeta.
Shit gets real very quickly in this series.
Forgot to mention that I think of Venia, Flavius, and Octavia as sheep. They're sweet and fuzzy but no deeper thoughts.
Katniss' growth? Pff––what about Collins? Did you guys see this!?
"Not my mother or Prim, obviously; they'd only become sick with worry."
A semicolon!! Holy crap! And then:
"Now he's arranging things around my living room: clothing, fabrics, and sketchbooks with designs he's drawn."
Collins just slammed down a semi AND normal colon in the same chapter! Where did this power come from!? She has not used EITHER KIND in the previous four hundred pages of writing! And it doesn't stop––what happened next sent my mind reeling in confounded amazement!
"The sound team records me reading from my cards in a chirpy voice so they can insert it later, then I'm tossed out of the room so they can film my/Cinna's designs in peace."
A forward slash now!? What in the world!? I didn't even think you could use those in books; I thought they were just for web addresses and making conflicted-looking faces! I don't know what to say. This is unprecedented. Collins has, in the span of nine pages, transcended the limits of all writing ability!
I'm kinda surprised you didn't mention this:
No more food porn.
I HAVE MISSED YOU, BRAD SMITH
Yeah, I didn't have internet access while I was in Kansas for Christmas! I missed you guys EVEN MORE than I missed playing World of Warcraft and checking my online thesaurus! 😉
I recently saw someone use a semicolon to start a list. As in, "Now he's arranging things around my living room; clothing, fabrics, and sketchbooks with designs he's drawn."
I almost wept :'(
Well that guy might have just forgotten to push the 'shift' button; I have no idea what Collins' excuse is. Up until now, every list in these books has began with a comma or as a new sentence. Didn't this seem strange to anyone proofreading the work?
In regards to the comments about if they have planes, cars, etc. and why it doesn't seem very "future-y", the world has only been like this for about 75 years. Who knows how the world was like before the rebellion that spawned the Hunger Games, and even way before that. I've gathered from little clues (I don't think this is a spoiler) that this is a few thousand years from now. And from the inside sleeve of Hunger Games it states.. "In the ruins of a place once known as North America likes the nation of Panem.." So the world could have been as majestic and as technologically advanced as we imagine, but war and whatever disaster could have ravaged our world and taken it all away.
So glad to see Katniss maturing. Makes the story seem more realistic. Part of it is just her getting older, however, the majority of it can be placed on the trauma she just went thru.I'm with you Mark- it throws me when I see a bit of technology in this world that I wasn't expecting.I love the themes of these books, but as far as this chapter, I love Collins pointing out that sometimes we have to look beyond ourselves and put ourselves in each other's shoes. What may seem silly or stupid to us could be a valued part of someone else's culture, or just a fad in a group different from our own. Doesn't make anyone "better" or "worse", it's just different.(yes, actually, I could argue against myself as far as the "better" or "worse" part, but it's almost 3 am and I'm too tired to change that sentence :P)
I couldn't help but compare this to that surreal feeling you get when everyone around you is AGONISING over what colour to dye hair/ paint nails/ or what stain to use on the polished floorboards when you are dealing with REAL SHIT!!! There are some people in my world who just don't seem to ever have REAL LIFE get in the way of their adorable fluffy lives – they are stupidly oblivious to how offensive their shallow whining can be.
again, President Snow is not one of the undead mythical creatures. You’ll just have to read the third book to find out why he smells like blood and roses. 🙂 Can’t wait for your review of the succeeding chapters!
There are planes in the future. They're just called hovercraft.
Oh, and for the record, I’ll state it right here: TEAM CINNA FOREVER. Dude is so fierce and awesome HATERS TO THE LEFT.
Seriously, Cinna is THE BEST.
YOU HAVE TO BE KIDDING ME. Holy shit, WHAT IS ALL THIS.
Right? What the fuck, Capitol?? YOU MUST BE VERY FUCKING FRAGILE INDEED.
"It takes a conscious effort to accept that people grew up differently and that doesn’t mean what they do is inferior to your experiences. (I think it actually can be, but that’s a different conversation.)" I think that a lot of the kids brought up by, for an extreme example, the people at Westboro Baptist are going to do shitty, shitty things, just like their parents do… but to a certain extent they aren't WHOLLY responsible for that. I mean, obviously they have the choice to do or not do these things, but I was indoctrinated pretty intensely, and I'm now a heathen. 😀 I guess it's that moment of realization where you realize, "Oh, shit, I'm being an asshole and a bigot to people who think/believe differently from me." Which goes both ways. Sorry, I say a lot of nothing.
THIS is why the Gale/Peeta/Katniss triangle is superior to every other love triangle out there. It's not a boring repetition of, "Oh! This guy is my twu wuv. But this guy is kind of hot? Which will I choose?" Instead, it's, "Oh! I like this guy. But if I don't pretend to be madly in love with this guy, EVERYONE I LOVE WILL DIE." That makes it a tad bit more interesting that your average love triangle.
Shit gets real so fast in this book!
<img style="padding : 5px;" src="http://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/15800000/Catching-Fire-winter-the-hunger-games-trilogy-15859017-1858-2100.jpg" alt="" width="620" align="right" />
I know I'm kind of late in reading this, but frankly I can't believe they still burn coal in the future. I mean, it's the 75th hunger games. That means its at least 2076. How has no one on the entire planet not come up with an alternative to oil and coal in 75 years? This totally bugged me until I realize that someone probably has invented it, and the Capitol uses it. They just make 12 dig up a ton of coal so that they can continue to make their lives suck by using the people's means of living to slowly kill them (or not so slowly, as in the case of Katniss's father). Then the rest of the districts get coal, the toxic and inferior source of energy, while people in the Capitol use solar cells to power their latte-machines. This world just gets more twisted. Also, WHAT HAPPENED TO THE REST OF THE WORLD??? Dying to know.
Ok, I have a question!!
In your Ch 1 review, you posted a passage that stated that Gale's mom was pregnant. In this review, you posted one that mentioned the years that Katniss has been mad at her mom for her depression over her dad's death. Gale's dad and Katniss' (Katniss's? Ugh, names ending in 's') dad died in the same explosion and that's why they've been hunting together for years and years.
Am I missing anything? How long does it take to have a baby in this universe?
I totally missed the pregnant thing when I read it, which was just last weekend, and so I'm only now catching up on your reviews and am totally late to the party, so don't laugh too much if you touched on this in a later review.
Also, I haven't read the third book yet (come ON, library, why so slow??) so please if you reply don't spoil me for book 3.
At least the boob did not get away with it, if you want to invest Ferrari $ on the bleached out GTO that has a boat anchor under the hood you should get what your having to pay for. I see fakes around the sector every one of the time, several of these salesmen just take quite very good shots and you could often pick out the bogus ones…