In the second chapter of The Golden Compass, NOTHING MAKES SENSE AND EVERYTHING HURTS. Intrigued? Then it’s time for Mark to read The Golden Compass.
I should really not ask a book to give me answers, because The Golden Compass just gave me more answers than I can handle. what the hell did i just read
CHAPTER TWO: THE IDEA OF NORTH
I’m confused. I AM SO CONFUSED, EVERYONE. I thought The Book Thief was bad about spoiling the future, but I was not even remotely prepared for what The Golden Compass just did to me. In short:
WHAT.
I don’t even think I have anything to compare to this, as I’ve not read a book that so submerses me in a world and then refuses to define any of it as much as this. So, a lot of what this review is going to comprise is the seemingly unending number of questions that I now have. CLEVER LIST TIME
Questions Mark Has About The Golden Compass
(Inspired Solely By Chapter 2)
(Don’t you Dare Answer These)
- What on earth is a Sub-Rector?
- Why are the Scholars given a title like that? What exactly does the position of a Scholar entail? Is that another word for something like a Professor at her college?
- LYRA HAS NO PARENTS? She was “left among them by chance� So she’s an orphan? What does it mean when she’s described as half-wild, half-civilized???
- Wait, cooking poppy? ISN’T THAT DRUGS. omg this book is promoting drug use CALL THE COPS
- What is Anbaric Park?
- What are philosophical instruments?
- WHAT THE HELL IS DUST? Why is everyone so enamored with it and why won’t Lord Asriel explain what it is to Lyra?
- What the HELL does this mean?: “An entire child. Which, given the nature of Dust, is precisely the point, is it not?†I’M SORRY, WHAT LANGUAGE ARE YOU SPEAKING
- How can there be a city in the Northern Lights? this is so nonsensical I AM SO DEEPLY CONFUSED
- A city in another world? Is this series about parallel universes i will pee my pants with joy if it is
- What on earth is trepanning and why was that used against Dr. Grumman to murder him?
- Who the hell are the Tartars and how do they relate to this story?
- panserbjørne. What??? What???
- omg someone in this book is named Trelawney ARE THEY RELATED TO SYBILL.
- Ok, someone is named Palmerian Professor, so clearly the Scholars are not Professors. WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE.
- Iofur Raknison, the king of Svalbard, does not have a dæmon, so who gets one? What’s the qualification?
- So the Master and the Librarian (whoever he is) tried to poison Lord Asriel for a good reason????? HOW IS POISONING SOMEONE POSSIBLY BETTER THAN NOT POISONING THEM?
- What in god’s name is a alethiometer?
- Oh lord, why is Lyra so important to this alethiometer and why will she be “drawn in†to the drama?
- Ok, when Pullman refers to the Church, is that basically the Catholic Church in this world? How is John Calvin the Pope in this world?
- Why was the Papacy abolished after Calvin’s death?
- How influential is the Magisterium in the lives of the world?
- What has the Librarian heard about the Oblation Board and why does it bring him anxiety?
- Ok, so #10 is nearly outright confirmed when the Master (named Charles!!!) explains who Barnard-Stokes is, but I want to wait to celebrate. So my question is: How many “worlds†exist aside the physical world and the spiritual world? The Church considers the talk of any parallel worlds aside from the normal two to be “heresy,†but did Barnard-Stokes discover that the Spiritual world isn’t real, too, or that it is, but there are more in addition to that?
- Why does the Master say, of the Consistorial Court and the Oblation Board, “They won’t have forgotten [Lyra]?†Why would they not have forgotten her? Did she do something when she was younger?
- WHY MUST SHE PLAY A PART IN ALL OF THIS?
- How would Lyra have been safe “for a little longer†if the Master had killed her uncle? What?
- WHAT THE FUCK, WHY IS LYRA GOING TO BE THE BETRAYER AND WHAT WILL SHE BETRAY
I am so terribly confused. what the hell just happened.
(Again, to reiterate what I just said: DO NOT ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS.)
This chapter really is just a dump of information that only creates many more questions, so much so that I don't really have a clue what to say here. It's such a detailed universe that Pullman is building with all these names/terms we don't know that I don't know whether to be impressed or slightly frustrated that I don't know what these things mean.
I'm excited over the prospect of an alternate universe/universes though because I love things like that. Will there be zeppelins? There better be zeppelins. It's practically a rule.
(I won't answer them because I can't remember if the book goes on to explain them or not but I will say one or two of your questions have real world answers that lie in European colleges/universities as opposed to purely Pullman creations.)
I love how Zeppelins have basically become the signature of alternate worlds.
Oh man. I forgot how confusing these first chapters are…
So glad someone else is mirroring the confusion I felt at this book when I read it at age 12! So many questions that can only be answered with context clues, plot development, etc. etc. as things go on.
Though your 11th question is purely a matter of vocabulary and can be looked up without spoilers. ^_^
One of the main problems with this book is that I never knew what I could look up without spoiling myself (naptha) and which words were specific to this book (anbaric). I don't think my vocabulary is necessarily more limited than others (I was eighteen when I first read these books), so I wonder if that's a failing of the author. He aimed these books at young adults, but you need a really solid education of world history and a fairly expansive vocabulary to get at a lot of the subtlety. This would probably be fine if there weren't so much of it, and it's fun to go back and get a deeper understanding, but it's also annoying the first time you read.
I read this book for the first time when I was 12, and I was one of those kids who, if I found a word in a book I didn't know, I looked it up every time. I felt I'd miss out on some hidden meaning if I just skipped over it, and I didn't want to feel like I'd missed some potential reference. (This is also why I love Lemony Snicket's writing.)
As I've grown up, world-building has become very important to how I judge books. And these books certainly bring it, when it comes to world-building. I found it terribly cool that he put so much world history and culture into these books, but you can never… quite… trust it. Because aspects of it are completely made up.
The problem is I read these books while I was house sitting and didn't have any phone or internet access (ah rural Colorado). I had no way to look anything up, so if I couldn't figure something out from context I was left adrift.
I did make it through the books, and I do like them. And I'm enjoying getting a deeper understanding now. But these chapters were so offputting the first time through, I actually forgot all about them. In my memory, the book started somewhere else.
*waves from rural Arkansas* We didn't have internet when I read these books, so I totally hear you about not having the technology we're used to having on-hand for looking things up. I used our copy of the OED, which kept the issue of spoilery words to a minimum as well.
OMG YOU ALL.
WE DID THE EXACT SAME THINGS
I've always been wary to look up definitions during Mark Reads because it is SO FUN to discover these things on my own. But as a kid, I sat with a dictionary next to me while I read Jane Austen and Poe and Lovecraft and it helped my vocabulary SO MUCH.
:D! I can't put into words how much the dictionary helped me with Poe and Lovecraft and Capote when I first read them as I was growing up.
It's possibly one of the reasons why I went into Library Science. ^_^ (Books! Words! Learning! Go!)
OMG Library Science – what is this and how do I get into it?? Hello future career! 🙂
When I first read these books I didn't really have use of the internet – we had one family computer and it took about half an hour to dial up – so I spent a lot of time asking my mum the meaning of various words. But, I also think that you have to take a couple of other things into account:
1. I don't know if it’s just me or other British/English people feel this way but a lot of the terms surrounding the Scholars are somewhat common-ish knowledge (or maybe it’s just me) from growing up in England.
and…
2. Also, I think the way Mark is reading has an effect too. Normally you would probably sit down and read the first 5 or so chapters in one sitting without stopping after each chapter to analyse it (this is the way I read at least,) which means you probably wouldn’t be thinking about the minutia of the world in such detail. Sometimes I think you just have to trust that the author will explain all soon enough and not worry if you don’t understand everything all the time. I think this is one of the reasons I was able to love these books right from the beginning when so many of my friends (who are also bookworms) struggled. I find it really easy just to read and trust in the knowledge that I will find stuff out later on.
Anyhoo, I never realised how hard it is to comment and not spoil – hope I did okay!
Library Science! The field for those who like finding out things by helping other people find out things! 😀 Organization! Access! Technology! Being devoutly anti-censorship! Etc.etc.etc.
A good overview can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_science
I specialized in the rare books/manuscripts area, since old and rare and beautiful books make me feel weak at the knees, but now work in an archive, taking care of their web presence, making sure our online exhibits are up-to-date, and that people can access our documents easily. ^___^ It's a very rewarding field (though not in the monetary rewards way; they keep cutting our budget).
I understand how you might be wary to look up definitions. But here's–if you like–a wiki article on "trepanning" that you can read so you know what it is. It is NOT spoilery, since trepanning is an actual word that means something in "real life". Pullman, when he uses the word, means the "real life" definition and we can all understand what he means if we know the meaning of the word.
Still, it's up to you (or other first-time readers!) if you'd like to know the meaning of the word or not, so I'll just link to it instead of defining it here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trepanning
Oh yes. I read this with my Oxford School dictionary beside me! Actually I got so adept at looking words up during this series that I then took out a Judy Blume book from our library which had been translated into French and attempted to read it with the help of a French dictionary. And gave up about 15 pages in. Apparently GCSE French has no usefulness at all when trying to read entire books.
I read the book the first time when I was 12, the second when I was 18. So I got two entirely different readings of the book, But I did eventually end up looking up most of the unknown vocabulary, and I have to say I don't mind it, it's how you learn and helps me getter a bigger understanding of things, it's also fun knowledge. The confusion never bothered me since I'm reader who obsesses over foreshadowing and subtlety as well as fan of fantasy so diving into an unknown world was natural to me.
*side note I was obsessed with going to Oxford from when I was 12 all the way too High School because of this book, to bad they don't have an arts program.
Maybe I'm just not remembering correctly, but I honestly can't think of any words I looked up being spoilery, except for a very few that are made up by Pullman himself, and which only show up in context of the novels. And if you search those ones, I'm fairly (though not completely) sure it'd be obvious that the pages are His Dark Materials-specific. I think that unless you're looking at something like the Wikipedia entry for "Glossary of His Dark Materials terms," it's pretty safe to read without being spoiled.
I guess I don't like the idea of needing to look something up in order to understand a book (especially not to the degree that this book requires it, at least in these chapters). If an author's going to include foot notes or end notes, that's one thing. But I don't want to have to carry a dictionary around with me. I like things to make sense from context. And I can usually figure out the meaning of a word I don't know based on the way it's used.
So here, I was able to figure out from context that anbaric = electric. But then I was just angry because there didn't seem to be a reason to make that replacement beyond making this world ~different~
It's probably just a difference in what one wants/expects from a book. I like books, no matter how fantastical, that teach me something I didn't know about the world, about science or history, or gives me new words I hadn't known before, that don't talk down me. There are entirely too many spoilery examples I could use from Lemony Snicket's works, but I will not use them here.
I like these books too, and I certainly learned a lot from them. But I think these early chapters are overly challenging. I feel like there could have been a less off-putting and less confusing way to introduce this world and hook the reader. It is a good, worthwhile story. But the inaccessibility of the beginning means a lot of people miss out on it because they can't get past the initial confusion. I'll probably have more to say about this once some of the answers start arriving.
I honestly think that part of it (at least here in such an early chapter) is that we're not really expected to know the terms, that we're supposed to be just as much in the dark as Lyra seemingly is. It's presumed that we're going to get some (if not all) of the answers when Lyra does, and having them mentioned this early is a (maybe not that effective?) way of piquing curiosity, and rewarding people who do rereads. Honestly, I didn't look up any of the terms until my second (maybe third?) reread.
There are terms Lyra's seemingly not in the dark about (such as anbaric and daemon), but I can't really be angry at characters using those words when (to me) it helps the world feel more believable, especially if it's apparently possible to glean at least some of the meaning in the first few chapters of the first book. If it took half a book to get a meaning of a word that's seemingly not going to be all that relevant, then I could see myself being angry.
I was kind of wondering about this too… I think all of the "mystery" words help with the general feel of the story at this point: it made me feel as young and excitably curious as Lyra. With all of the unknowns, I would also be hiding in wardrobes and running around like a crazy person, finding information wherever possible. She seems hungry for knowledge and information, very much like the reader.
Maybe my reactions to the unknown words/elements are a bit of a stretch, but I kind of think that's what the author was going for? Maybe not 🙂
That's the thing, though: you're honestly not meant to understand all the references that get thrown at you here. I guess this bothers some people more than others. It never bothered me that I didn't know what naptha light was; I was like "oh, it's some kind of light" and just went on reading. If you're focusing on all the specifics and trying to figure everything out here, you're going to be frustrated. If you don't worry about it and just keep reading the adventure, it'll all make sense eventually.
Then again, this site has introduced me to a very broad idea of what spoilers are. To me, a spoiler is "Character dies" or "This happens" or mentioning a specific plot or character moment. I respect the rules of this site, but I still don't think it's a spoiler to tell someone "this gets explained later, don't worry." So this idea that looking up a word and it spoiling the book… it would have to be a pretty terrible book where one term is so important.
I think it is a matter of taste. And in this case I think it's the sheer amount of new information. It feels like there's no firm place to stand. I didn't mind knowing nothing in Harry Potter, for example, because I understood where he was coming from and some of the basic stuff. But with this book *everything* is new. And I think that combined with the fact that it feels like there should be footholds to keep me balanced. I can handle a purely fantastic world (a long time ago in a galaxy far away), but this feels too familiar to be so different, if that makes sense. It's hard to pin things down right now.
Not to say I don't like this book, because I do. It's just frustrating at times.
Yea, I wonder why all the new words in Harry Potter didn't annoy me but the ones in HDM did, and still kind of do since I've forgotten pratcially everything, annoy me. For me, I think because all the new terminology in Harry Potter sounded fantastical while Pullman's terminology sounds more legit, if that makes any sense.
Also, when there was new vocab in HP, Harry was just as confused as we were and was able to ask "what's that mean" so the reader could learn too. It's difficult when a new word or idea is thrown out without any context around it to help the reader understand.
I gotta say, so far I'm not really a fan of this book. If it keeps going like this I won't be reading the rest of the series. 🙁 I'm not really enjoying it.
I gleaned the same basic meaning of anbaric, but assumed that the use of a different word must signify that actually, it's like electric but something, maybe in the mechanics and science of it, must be slightly different. But I haven't finished reading, so who knows. Maybe I'm making assumptions.
Yeah, that should have been a squiggly equal sign. Similar to, not the same as. Because there's not enough information to really support that.
It's…actually NOT a Young Adult book, as I understand it. It was released as an adult fantasy in the UK, just marketed in YA in the US. Probably because Lyra is young, and in the US, if your protagonist is under 18, it's YA, regardless of actual content. :/
Ah, I didn't know that. They do make more sense as being aimed at adults. I was definitely going by the rule of thumb that the age of the protagonist is the age of the intended reader.
I definitely go by that rule of thumb often, but haha, I'd have to say that lately most of what I read has protagonists at least a bit younger than me.
Argh, yup, The Book Thief was marketed as YA too…
In my estimation HDM live in the nebulous area between children's and YA lit. I'd call The Golden Compass Children's Lit in particular. Not to say they can't be marketed towards adults as well, of course.
As for Philip Pullman, he was a teacher of adolescents for many years and I believe he used to tell them stories, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if he quite consciously wrote towards that age group (as well as ABOUT that age group, seeing as it's about Lyra :-P). If you check out his website (MARK DON'T DO THAT as I'm sure there are vague spoilers on there somewhere), he has some interesting interviews in which he talks about children's literature and why he prefers to write for children than for adults. Basically, he likes the immediacy of children's lit, which allows you to explore things through the story (plot) itself, instead of adult lit which he says is often more concerned with its own surface (i.e. a book that's really "about" the complexity of its own writing or what it's own writing is "doing", and therefore is a commentary on stories, not a story itself. He's more interested in stories themselves, and kid lit allows him to do that unabashedly, as I understand it).
I was super young when I read these books so it was ~before the internet~ (not really but we didn't have any connection at our house, or if we did, I definitely wasn't allowed to go on) so I would always get incredibly frustrated when I came across one of his made up words or when he assigned normal words weird definitions (that made no sense, but basically Dust confused the hell out of me because normal dust isn't very special). I would look them up in the dictionary but that wasn't very helpful. SO FRUSTRATING!!!
Loving the list! This series is confusing – so deliciously confusing!! I am thoroughly enjoying your befuddlement.
YOU ARE NOT PREPARED. 🙂
You know, every time I see that phrase under the title of the website (and just now in your comment), I imagine Illidan Stormrage going nuts at people for spoiling…
Mark, I think it is save to google "trepanning" (a medical term) and "tartars" (as far as I remember, they live in southern russia)
Although they are really Tatars, not Tartars — "Tartar" was an anglo corruption with possible influence from "Tartarus", because they were viewed as being demonically violent or something.
It always makes me think of Tartar Sauce, which has absolutely nothing to do with violence and quite a lot to do with fish. Silly brain and its word association problems. 😀
And then there's Cream of Tartar, which doesn't even have anything to do with Tartar Sauce. And Steak Tartare….
I totally read "Tatars" as "Taters" and was all, "….what's taters, precious?"
Couldn't help it.
"Poh-tay-toes. Boil 'em, mash 'em, stick 'em in a stew."
<3 I find a way to stick this quote in everywhere it doesn't belong.
There is nowhere where that quote doesn't belong. Wow, that is an awkward sentence.
If you take out the extra "where" it sounds less awkward 🙂
I'll just leave this here… http://cheezcomixed.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/k…
At the time of the movie my daemon was a lion – yay? Awfully big to have around.
I read this series in 2005 and I am re-reading it right now in celebration of Mark reading it! I started a few days ago though, so I am on chapter 19 of TGC/NL. I am actually reading my NL copy that I found in a used book shop in Edinburgh in 2006. It makes me want to go back to Scotland (but so does everything these dyas!).
Duh…DAYS. That’ll teach me to type out on a smartphone without zooming in the page!
I live in Edinburgh, and hearing Edinburgh-love from outsiders always makes me happy 😀 So I'm gonna come right out and say it even though I don't know you: Scotland misses you, COME BACK!
Ella –
Why thank you!! I live in Canada (Ontario to be exact) and I LOVE Scotland. Believe me, if I could, I’d be there tomorrow. We flew into Glasgow (loved the city, couldn’t understand anyone for the first few days), went to Stirling, drove up to see the Glenfinnan viaduct (hello, HP fan here), Loch Ness/Urquhart Castle, stopped in Inverness (lovely!), drove through the Grampians, and spent a lot of time in Aberdeen (I was there for a conference in grad school). I really liked Aberdeen – it was off the main ‘tourist’ route, and my great-gramma grew up there. We went to Cruden Bay and the Bullers of Buchan to see where my great-grandfather had grown up. We spent a day at the fabulous Slains Castle. Then we drove south to Edinburgh, stopping at Glamis Castle along the way. Edinburgh was (as you know) breathtaking and I could have spent a lot more time there, just exploring. We also went to Rosslyn for a day.
In short – yes, I harbour a deep abiding love for Scotland. I also dream of living there for a year or so. I’d travel throughout Scotland and the rest of the UK and Ireland too. Everything is so (relatively) close in Europe. Not too difficult to get to Berlin or Paris for a weekend. Speaking from the POV of someone who lives in Ontario – which is 1700 km by 1650km and can fit France and Spain within its borders. 😉 Put Quebec with Ontario and you’ve basically got the entire EU. Mostly I’ve travelled within Canada and the US and it is a goal of mine to see each province and territory of Canada. 😉 5 down, 8 to go!
Aww, that sounds like an awesome trip! What self-respecting HP fan could neglect to go to Glenfinnan?! 😀 You definitely should come back – everyone should, always! YES! DO IT!
And yes, I can't even conceive of having regions that vast. I remember visiting my Mum's old college friend in Minnesota, and being astounded that he suggested we went to a restaurant in a town THREE HOURS' DRIVE AWAY. What the what-now?! Hehe!
I am also an outsider to Edinburgh who has been living here for a semester, and I love being here. I'm actually leaving to go back to the U.S. tomorrow, though. I'm really going to miss not having to calculate sales tax in my head. Oh, and the people too. Can't forget them. 😀
Damn straight, yo! 😉
I also found my copy in a used book shop in Edinburgh, small world.
my name is andrew le brun and i played mrs coulters butler in the golden compass my daemon was a bulldog im an actor and a member of equity
Oh Mark, you're so precious. And entertaining. I love your lists and your confusion.
I almost think this book works better on a second read-through because all of this early stuff makes a lot more sense. It's really hard to hit the right pace of information dissemination so that readers stay interested and can follow the story, but nothing key is revealed. I don't think Pullman's strategy for world-building is the best here. It's not awful, but I've seen it done better by other authors. This world is just so complex. It's different enough that nothing makes sense, but familiar enough that everything feels like it should make sense. And it ends up up more frustrating than anything else. There's too much information and not enough explanation in the early chapters. I'm not sure I got anything out of them on my first read-through, since I tend to ignore things that didn't make sense. I assumed Pullman would eventually explain everything, and that this would happen by the time things became important, so I ignored a lot of what happened in the beginning.
I think these chapters are supposed to hook the reader and set up the mystery. For me, they were something to barrel through. I was just hoping it wouldn't take too long for me to get to a place in the book where I had a firm grasp of what was happening.
This series is pure unadulterated confusion all the way baby
TRUTH
LOL, Mark, your confusion brings me too much joy, I am cackling right now.
And can I just say, I was REALLY annoyed that silly things like having a life and going to school got in the way of me seeing your first reaction sooner! You have no idea how absolutely thrilled I am you’re doing this series, Mark! And you’re going to fully appreciate reading this series spoiler-free.
It has shaped so much of my childhood and so much of the adult that I am today. Also, to put it in context for you: it is my favourite book series ever, second ONLY to the inseparable part of my growing up that is Harry Potter. And, while I’m still on the fence with this – even after so many years – Philip Pullman and J.K.Rowling still fight in my head for the spot of most influential author in my life. This is how seriously I take these books!
SO. The Idea Of the North. Pullman starts of this chapter by very vaguely answering some of the questions we had in the chapter before but simultaneously makes us ask many, many new ones (SOMETHING WHICH YOU'RE VER AWARE OF, MARK – I am still laughing!). First, we get an idea of the scale of this College as far as the staff is concerned: Master, Chaplain, Subrector, Dean, Librarian, Enquirer, Precentor, Palmerian Professor etc. When I first read this book (9 and half years old!), these seemed very strange words to me but told me that this place was HUGE. We also get to witness a poppy cooking ceremony which isn’t exactly relevant information as far as we can see but certainly gives you a clue as to how much thought the author put into this story.
Which brings me to the point where I must wax lyrical about Pullman’s world building. I’ve heard that his style is somewhat off-putting to some people but I’ve come to adore his way of throwing you into the story with pretty much no warning. He never explicitly states that this world is different from our own but we’re left with little doubt as the conversation in the Retiring Room goes on. “Photograms”, “philosophical instruments”, “King of Lapland” (which I’m pretty sure used to be a province of Sweden and/or Finland in our world), “New Denmark” etc. I remember staring at all these incomprehensible names in wonder when I first read this. I also remember being impatient to find out everything about this world.
The story Lord Asriel tells the scholars is definitely the most intriguing thing about the chapter. His expedition to find out what happened to Stanislaus Grumman leads him to discover what’s ‘hidden’ behind the Aurora (ahem, Northern Lights – which is what I will always call this book XD) – a city laying in the sky, another world. It’s no wonder this book is among my favourite things ever; it starts with an attempted murder and mentions other worlds in THE FIRST TWO CHAPTERS. CAN IT GET MORE AWESOME?
And, as gruesome as it is, I love that Asriel tries to scare the Scholars into funding his expedition by showing them Grumman’s head. His ‘sardonic amusement’ as he watched them back away in disgust mirrored my own. You can see how absolutely powerful and manipulative he is simply from that gesture, which makes him all the more intriguing. I also loved how Lyra desperately wanted to see the head too; children do love blood and gore and guts and I appreciated the fact that Pullman points it out and makes Lyra an even more believable character.
Lastly, the conversation between the Master and the Librarian. We’re introduced to the Magisterium, which is what the Papacy has become since Pope John Calvin (real person – though not a Pope) moved it to Geneva. An all-powerful Catholic Church? Simultaneously terrifying and fascinating. And the inevitable mention of Lyra; “…the child is involved…and a great betrayal…”
And I leave you with a parting quote: “That's the duty of the old, to be anxious on behalf of the young. And the duty of the young is to scorn the anxiety of the old.” Which sounds like such a Dumbledore thing to say. And that can only be good.
I also loved the ending quote! And how Lyra is all "I want to see the head!" XD further on what I commented on last time, it just shows how Pullman doesn't really subscribe to gender stereotypes so much. Seriously, when was the last time anyone read a female character for a teen/pre-teen audience say "I want to see the head!"?
I read the chapter just minutes before and your questions fill me with deep, deep glee. It's all in the air at this point and it's so glorious to be a reader WHO KNOWS ALL in the face of your unknowing. My excitement will probably grow as the book goes on.
It's so fun to join in this way~
I adore the depth in these books, I adore the ideas and themes and characters–Lord Asriel springs out of the book in particular, to me. He's such a strong, powerful character; he completely dominates the room when he's in it.
I agree re: Lord Asriel. I always kind of imagined him to look like a lion, with a wavy long mane and craggy features (Craig pulled this off pretty well in the movie).
Pullman is such a great writer that he just dumps you into his world and as a reader, you TOTALLY BUY INTO IT. Pullman is such a revealer. He kid of lays it all out for you and you just follow him along as he tells the story. He's awesome.
Totally accurate theory: The Scholars are really Time Lords and they choose their names and originate from the city in the sky. The Palmeranian Professor marries the great-great-grandmother (was that who it was?) of Sybil Trelawney but the Time Lordiness and the witchiness combined strangely 5 generations later, meaning she can only make accurate predictions in a trance. And Lyra is actually the previously unknown, first incarnation of the Doctor. She's going to betray the Master, but they will both forget the details but their enmity will make itself known in various ways, such as the Master's affinity for drums. He totally has a collection in his room.
What? I have legitimate things to add to this conversation. Okay, fine, I'll shut up now.
Also, just noticed that we can only upvote. Does this mean I no longer have to preface things with UNPOPULAR OPINION TIME and don't have to worry about the nightmare I had during THG that the little number by my name would turn into a scary, red -80? That is very EXCITE.
I've had that nightmare, too. What has this site done to us?
Yup, you are now free to express your opinions without paranoia!
-80!?! That must've been some unpopular opinion.
But yes, no more having to preface opinions any more. Mark got rid of the thumb down button last week.
I've seen the -80 around on this site! I think the person had spoiled or said "First" or something, but my dreams didn't realize that. In my nightmare, I was frantically looking through my Intense Debate archives of comments trying to figure out what happened. I never came to a conclusion, but my guess is it would have had something to do with my opinion of Prim. But I woke up in a slight panic that I would have to do something to make sure I didn't get banned. As caito716 said, "What has this site done to us?"
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA oh my god I love you all so dearly.
There are a few people who have made it to red. They either:
1) spoiled
2) were shitty oppressors
3) Expressed an unpopular opinion.
#3 should never have happened and, in conjunction with the way it was used to bully someone on Mark Watches, I had them removed.
I have nightmares about accidentally spoiling Mark 🙁 I love unpopular opinion time, though!!
I'm very amused by your confusion, but then I wonder if this isn't a mild form of schadenfreude. Does it make me a bad person?
I really like the Librarian's lines at the end of the chapter: "That's the duty of the old, to be anxious on behalf of the young. And the duty of the young is to scorn the anxiety of the old." It's like a direct reference to Grumman's mangled, scalped head in a box, and the perplexing, complex world that the Master and the Librarian lay out for us, and the probable response of overprotective adults: "Won't somebody please think of the children!" Pullman's directness really works with the subject matter.
Most importantly, this chapter makes me want a bagel. Maybe some hamantaschen.
I love that line, too. And they very last line of the chapter, "The sat for a while longer, and then they parted, for it was late, and they were old and anxious." felt like a Neil Gaiman line. It was so good
If it makes you a bad person, then the same goes for all of us.
For why are we here, if not to be gleeful in the face of Mark's unpreparedness? >_> *guilt*
First off – hi! – my first post using an actual account; I've been trying for ages to figure out a way to sign in using my google account and that doesn't seem to be supported so I've just been commenting anonymously as "Stuart". The reason I finally broke down and used a real login using twitter instead (and agreed to the scary-looking page that says IntenseDebate is now authorized to post tweets on my behalf, which I emphatically am deeply uncomfortable with) is that I found myself replying last night to someone else called Stuart who was indistinguishable from my own posts. Oops.
Anyway – I'm actually (re)reading along with Mark on this one and I'm so happy I can 🙂 So when I read this chapter on the train this morning all I could think was "OMG Mark is going to be SO CONFUSED he is NOT PREPARED".
I'd forgotten just how much information gets dumped in the first couple of chapters. Dumbledore's conversation with McGonagall in the first chapter of HP is similarly confusing, but goes into much less depth and it's much easier to dismiss as "well, it's okay that I don't understand the details of this yet". The Librarian's conversation with the Master somehow manages to convey the impression that the author is saying "I hope you're taking notes on this, because there will be questions on it in your exam."
"I hope you're taking notes on this, because there will be questions on it in your exam."
Hahahaha, yes, I totally get this feeling!
you might be interested to know i played mrs coulters buler in the golden compass im andrew le brun an actor and a member of equity you can see me just after mrs coulter and lyra fly in the skyship to mrs coulters house as they arrive at the house and taking off mrs coulters cloak
First, can I say what a bold move it is for Asriel to outright state that the last time he was on a journey, he explicitly lied to everyone (presumably including the people funding the mission) about where he was going and what he was actually doing there? And not only that, but the research he was illicitly doing in the North was completely heretical, which could possibly cause the Magisterium to crack down on whoever funds him?
To say that at a meeting to decide whether his next project will get funding is extremely reckless; he must be absolutely convinced that he's going to win the vote, or perhaps just absolutely convinced that if they don't fund him, he'll be able to get the money in some other way. Certainly, the way the Master and the Librarian talk about the funding issue seems to be rather resigned. It seems like it's only them against a room of either outright Asriel supporters or undecideds. Seriously, the argument they want to advance is not that Asriel's work could seriously damage the College's standing with the Church, but that it can't be funded based on a residential technicality?
It honestly reads like a jibe at the Master. In the last chapter, he went into the retiring room without the Master's permission, which he probably knows is completely against the customs of the college. At the beginning of this one, we're told that he dominates the room, treating the Master with clipped pleasantries (refusing to treat him as above the other Scholars) and then abandoning the Master's side because he wants to talk to the Chaplain instead. Here, it's even more obvious. He seems to be saying that he can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, because he's got everyone else on his side (and possibly in his pockets).
Ok, I NEED to answer no. 4, it's going to kill me:
they're probably using ripe poppy seeds that are edible, and are awesome in caked, like this: http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp23/nikolina1…
The seeds that are still green are used to make opium, and not noms.
I will shut up about everything else in fear of spoiling.
Interesting thing to note: eating poppy seeds can show up as opium use on a drug test. Atheletes, avoid poppy seed bagels.
That's so unfair, because poppy seed bagels don't actually get you high. Unless they do and I've been missing out this whole time.
So many questions!!! It's been so long since I have read these books, so I'm excited to read along. This will probably the first time that I actually get everything that happens.
In other happy-book-time related news: HOLY GOD I AM IN LOVE WITH SECOND HAND STORES/CHARITY SHOPS!!! Seriously, over the past 2 months I have purchased so many books there, including:
– The Complete Works of William Shakespeare
– The Complete Workd of Jane Austen
– The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy (complete)
– The Complete Works of F. Scott Fitzgerald
– Wuthering Heights
– Moby Dick
– Lord of the Flies
All of them incredibly good and beautiful copies, and everything together it cost a grand total of… 7 DOLLARS?!?!?! OH MY GOD I AM TRULY IN NERD-HEAVEN.
*book-gasm* What beautiful purchases!
This comment is totally tangential but I love talking about books >.> Anyway, I also adore second hand book shops. I live in a very small village in the middle of nowhere and in the middle of the village we have a book window sill, or 'booksill'. People donate books they dont want any more and put them on the booksill, then anyone can walk by and pick up a book they want to read. Its amazing! Also, if you want to, you can donate some money (however much you think the book is worth) and it will go to a local charity. I have a whole stack of books that Ive picked up from the booksill and havent got round to reading yet.
What a great, friendly community system! I live in a small city, so I don't think the scale would be quite right. But I could see something like that working on a college campus, too!
Oh I love that my campus' English department sells used books. There need to be used book stores where I live. I have had to rely on bookmooch and swap.com.
The complete works of F. Scott Fitzgerald? YES PLEASE.
Do not forget yard sales, car boot sales or library sales. I got this series at a car boot sale for a fiver.
Oh my, so jealous! I'm lucky enough to have a coworker thats let me borrow her books. Every single book that I have asked about, she has had and has let me borrow. That is how I am reading The Golden Compass right now! She is even better than a library because she delivers to my desk 🙂
TELL ME ABOUT IT!
Last summer I totally bought five Discworld novels, and could have bought more, if I wasn't traveling or wanted to lug around a library.
When I first read the books, I accidentally started with the second one. I was glad at the time, because I don't think my young self could have handled NOT UNDERSTANDING ANYTHING. 😀 OMG I CANNOT WAIT UNTIL YOU FIND THE ANSWERS TO YOUR QUESTIONS!
A lot of this you're not meant to understand– these are adults talking politics, they know what's going on, but Lyra has no way to know this, because she's a kid and has no context. If you were twelve and you heard people discussing all the political issues of the day, would you have any idea wtf was going on?
Some of it, though– I don't want to spoil anything, but some of these questions really can be answered if you sit down and think for a second. I never took the "half-wild, half-civilized" thing to be anything more than colorful description, at least.
Basically, calm down and don't think too hard about anything at this point.
The trepanning is a real thing, at least. You can google it if you're interested. I think the poppy stuff might be a real thing, too, but that one I'm less sure about. Remember at the turn of the century there was actual cocaine and heroin in pharmaceutical products; they probably don't care much about poppy. Morphine is derived from poppy, right? And I don't think they made the connection that morphine was addictive until much later.
It's not clearly stated what effects the poppy heads actually have – they are supposed to "clarifiy the mind and
stimulate the tongue, and make for rich conversation". Since the actual effect would be rather of the opposite nature, maybe their poppies work in a different way… or they don't consume enough of them to have an effect, and it's all just a placebo kind of thing.
They did know about opium addiction at the turn of the century – in fact, it had been rampant both in the Western world and in China for well over a century then. They would also know opium was derived from poppy heads, they were men of some knowledge after all.
I just read today that Britain introduced opium to China because China had tea, and we wanted to give them something which would keep them coming back for more (with more tea) 0.o
Yes. The opium thing lead to a lot of conflict. The users of the drug in China wanted it to keep coming, but the government realised that drug abuse wasn't really beneficial to a working society, and tried to order the British to stop bringing in opium. They refused, and it lead to the Opium Wars.
Yeah, when I read "clarify the mind" I was like "wait, what?" But maybe poppies in this world are ~different.~
Oh Mark, I forgot how confusing it is to read these the first time around. It did take me a few years after first picking up this book when I was young to actually read it all through properly. The confusion is worth the payoff though, I promise.
🙂
I actually really like books like this, when you aren't just spoon-fed information – you'e expected to sort of pick up stuff as you go along. It's great because it makes you do some work, and gives more a sense of accomplishment, I feel. Because of course now I've read it, I feel like a total ~expert~ in this stuff. 😛
It's Lie-ra
OMG, I actually had it right for once! Thanks so much!
Crap. I always say things wrong.
(Lie-ra totally makes more sense given lyres, etc., but I read it as Lir-a from the beginning and cannot correct myself.)
I read it as Lir-a too – it's like lyrical!
My copy of the book does not have the mini introduction and Mark hasn't mentioned his copy having it either, and I didn't figure out that particular tidbit til the beginning of book 2, so I would consider this a huge spoiler, unfortunately, since the rest of the comment is really good.
I'm deleting this comment because of the reference to the mini introduction, which Mark has not mentioned reading and thus has NOT been spoiled by. I'm e-mailing you your comment so you can repost.
Sorry! Reposting without spoiler:
Rhetorical questions (notes taken before I read the reviw):
What are these people talking about?
Something otherworldish shows on a special photograpic emulsion. In old-fashioned non-digital photography special emulsions are used to take pictures in infrared or ultraviolet light, so this specially prepared emulsion may be nothing mysterious. But what is this Dust and the city in the sky? The Dust affects adults, but not children? They made a point of this being an “entire” child, what did they mean?
I’m still not sure concerning the use of technology or magic in this otherworld. There are steam-powered trains. Judging from the reference to the Anbaric Park, “anbaric” seems to be “electric” (but not quite the same?). Well, we can not expect otherworlders to speak german (or english), they may use whatever words they like. But if this wasn’t translated for our convenience, we wouldn’t understand a word, so why is only “anbaric” not translated?
Suppose the otherworlders speak german (english, finnish or whatever you prefer). Then ourworld and otherworld were once connected, but detached before electricity was known, and when they explored something new, ourworlders and otherworlders may have chosen different words for the same phenomenon? Does this make sense? Are here any etymologists who may tell us the possible origin of “anbaric”?
Lyra doesn’t know what a family is and was left at the college (not an orphanage) by chance? And she is someone special?
Pantalaimon shifted shape to look like an ermine. So they can do it.
All the exciting about “I want a daemon now” may be based on knowledge I still don’t have, but just now I don’t want a daemon. “Stay save”, “Keep the rules”, “You should bla bla bla”. I don’t need a Hermione, I’m hermionish myself. But wait. Would female daemons be like Ron? This might be fun.
I dunno if this is right, but "electric" derives from "electrum" which is Latin for amber. "Anbaric" might well be a corruption of "amberic", although I can't for the life of me say why that would happen — "n" usually assimilates with whatever follows.
Anbar is Arabic for amber.
Ooh, anbar –> amber? That makes so much more sense.
YOU. ARE. SO. UNPREPARED. I LOVE IT.
I almost missed the part about him shifting from moth to ermine, but caught it when I reread those last few paragraphs, since they were so chock full, I noticed. Cool! I want one even more now.
I'd much rather have an ermine than a moth following me around, honestly.
<img src="http://icanhascheezburger.wordpress.com/files/2008/04/funny-pictures-ermine-eats-bread.jpg" style="word-spacing:809203px;font-size:809203px;" alt="Humorous Pictures" />
7. WHAT THE HELL IS DUST? Why is everyone so enamored with it and why won’t Lord Asriel explain what it is to Lyra?
It is an evil manifestation of laziness and procrastination that I must now clean out of my room before I leave, or else I will get billed 'cleaning fees.' One must not explain such horrid concepts to children until they are old enough to appreciate its true malevolence. For instance, the big bad evil cousin of the Dust (mostly no longer) in my room is currently in the air over Iceland, Britain, and Scandinavia, possibly coming towards the rest of Europe to disrupt my flights from France to Germany to the USA, thus imperiling my chances of having Chipotle (which I have not had for 4 months, due to incredibly poor planning upon the part of the French) by the end of the week. I am not amused.
Also, of course they are related to Sybil, because who WOULDN'T want to be related to wizards/witches, even one who is rather incompetent?
UGH, the Dust is keeping me from packing. Its not my fault, I swear.
What on earth is a Sub-Rector?
It's an underwater Rector.
Why are the Scholars given a title like that?
Because they are Scholars and Scholars love titles.
What does it mean when she’s described as half-wild, half-civilized???
Business in the front, party in the back.
What are philosophical instruments?
They're what Socrates and Plato used to form the very first rock band.
WHAT THE HELL IS DUST?
It is a song by the Last Ambassadors, my friend's brother's rock band, which does not feature Socrates and Plato.
I’M SORRY, WHAT LANGUAGE ARE YOU SPEAKING
Pullmanglish.
omg someone in this book is named Trelawney ARE THEY RELATED TO SYBILL.
Yes. I mean, no.
So the Master and the Librarian (whoever he is)
The Librarian is an orangutan. He was once a wizard, but he was transformed into an orangutan by a rogue spell.
WHAT THE FUCK, WHY IS LYRA GOING TO BE THE BETRAYER AND WHAT WILL SHE BETRAY
Believe the lie, apology is policy, trust no one.
So the Master and the Librarian (whoever he is)
The Librarian is an orangutan. He was once a wizard, but he was transformed into an orangutan by a rogue spell.
And he tried to poison Lord Asriel because Asriel called him
a monkeythe M-word.I actually can't read the word 'Librarian' without thinking of an orangutan. It's a serious problem.
Same here. Whenever a librarian appears in a novel, I wonder why he's not going "ook".
Same problem. The exact same problem.
AN UNDERWATER RECTOR. I think I love you. Also, Discworld <3333
Sub-Rector always sounds vaguely dirty to me. Probably because the word "rector" is way too close to the word "rectum" for my liking.
After reading this review, I've decided I'm gonna have to find the time to re-read cos I've read it and I can't even remember the answers to the majority of those questions!
Despite that, I do like it when books get straight into it rather than giving us answers at the beginning. That's boring and means that when you finally get to the answer, it's like a little reward! 😀
With the exception of Number 11 (thank you GCSE History of Medicine! Ten years later, you still come up trumps!), your list was my own mental list on reading this chapter. It's interesting reading people's slightly negative responses to it because to me it's all I DON'T KNOW WHAT THIS IS AND I WANT TO KNOW YAAAAAAAAAAY NEW SHINY THINGS TO LEARN ABOUT 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀. I suppose I can see why it could be frustrating, and maybe I'll get frustrated if things aren't explained soon, but currently this book has EVERYTHING I WANT.
Strange words I don't understand? Check.
Complicated political situation? Check.
Heresy laws and problematic theology? Check.
Ambiguous morality? Check.
DAEMONS FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DAEMONS? Check. (This is a new addition to the checklist.)
MOAR OF ALL OF THIS PLEASE AND THANKYOU.
I'm always pleasantly surprised when a nugget of information from Medicine Through Time comes in handy in my adult life (oh hey, I reckon we probably sat it the same year). Although I knew about trepanning before that and am vaguelly surprised to discover that it's not general childhood knowledge. Perhaps I was a weird child.
How would Lyra have been safe “for a little longer” if the Master had killed her uncle? What?
Seriously, WHAT THE HELL. The Master also talks about not wanting Lyra to go north or something (sorry, read this last night and don't have the book with me), which is weird considering Asriel actually refuses to take Lyra North even though she wants to go? Is the Master wrong about Asriel or is there something else going on that we don't know about yet? (PROBABLY BOTH??)
I am the sort of reader who doesn't mind having a bunch of unexplained stuff thrown at me; I actually prefer to figure things out from context rather than having paragraphs of info-dumping. So as long as I can trust the writer to eventually make all this stuff clear later on, I don't mind it, but even so, this chapter stretches even my patience with all the Unexplained Mysterious Crap! MUST READ MORE
I really love that you are reading this book 😀 I didn't have time to comment on chapter 1 yesterday (oh RL obligations, why do you have to ruin everything *shakes fist*), but there wasn't that much to say anyways, as I don't want to spoil anything for you 🙂 This series is really best when read spoiler-free because Pullman really isn't afraid to drop us right into the story. He doesn't explain and I love it 😀
I love all your questions, and it's exactly how I felt the first time I read this. It is confusing, and it is big, but it's also so, so beautiful and exciting 😀
This chapter was like a season finale of LOST — answering some questions and raising even more questions. Reading along with Mark was not the best idea.
OH CHRIST IT TOTALLY IS.
omg hello THANKS FOR READING WITH ME.
One of the benefits of rereading years after a first read is that I've forgotten lots of stuff, so it's often like reading it again for the first time. With this particular chapter, HAHAHA OMG I had forgotten how DEEPLY CONFUSING this stuff is. I had a vague idea of some of it, but the rest was like "Wha? What's going on what are these terms WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN?" much like you, Mark. I figured that Pullman would dole out the info as needed along the way, though, so I wasn't bothered. I kind of made mental notes of stuff and resolved to go back and reread whenever something came up. And as others have noted, it wouldn't make sense for Lyra to understand all the political stuff either, she's just as in the dark as we are. I presume a lot of stuff will be explored in-depth later (well, assuming it's all relevant to the narrative: hard to say at chapter two of book one, y'know), and I'm looking forward to rediscovering the answers.
ALSO LOL THE MASTER TOTALLY SPOILED THE BOOK. Well, supposing what he saw of ~the future~ comes true; maybe a prophecy will be averted this time? I dunno, I'm often wary of prophecies in fiction unless handled right, and so often they're not. We'll see in this case.
Just out of curiosity, how did you feel about the prophecy in HP?
That's one of the ones I didn't mind, largely because it could have gone either way in-text: it didn't have to be Harry, it could've been Neville, the outcome was affected by people's choices. First Voldemort's choice in going after Harry, and Lily's sacrifice for him, and then Harry's decision to fight Voldemort and how he fought him. It always felt to me like free will was important too.
I agree. I like the way it was handled–it only became important because it was acted on and believed in by individuals.
THIS. 🙂
Precisely.
I have read plenty of fanfic where Neville is marked by V., and becomes the boy who lived, and Harry is raised in a full home, etc. etc. If written well, it's a compelling alternative story.
But I'm with you — free will is a big part of that story as a whole, and prophecies that make no allowance for free will often rankle me in fiction.
CAN I ALSO JUST SAY
how hard it is not to think of THE Master when reading this?
AMIRITE WHOVIANS AMIRITE
YOU ARE SO RIGHT. I mean, I hadn't seen any Who when I first read it, but now – yeah. 😀
Like I said yesterday, there are a load of Inspector Morse and Lewis episodes set in Oxford colleges where people are always going on about "The Master". I always do a double take – and then think about how you could make a weird audio drama out of them.
I haven't read this book in so long but I totally remember the utter confusion at the start. You just get dropped into this world and suddenly DUST IS NOT DUST. I remember that clearly.
So I hope the crazy confusion gets cleared up because I cannot really remember the answer to most of these questions only how completely confusing they were at this point
I haven't posted in a while, been following forever, but I had to say that this is exactly how I felt when I first "read" through this book. A co-worker lent me the audio cds to listen in on my way to and from work (the commute was awful so it passed time). I remember listening to this chapter a few times just trying to figure out if I'd skipped a part and missed something. There's so much information!
Oh, and this hasn't got to do with TGC, but — since there are enough links in the navbar for two rows, would it be feasible to put the books and the admin links on separate rows for visual clarity's sake? I mean if you want to and have the time.
OOOOH
I LIKE THIS IDEA
But the WordPress menu option for this theme does not allow me. It just fills up row one until it pushes them to row two 🙁 🙁 🙁
You could put two blank menu options after twilight, which would push the other two to the second row, perhaps?
Tried already. IT WAS A FAILURE. They wouldn't show up!
That sucks. Well then you'll just have to read exactly two more books immediately 😉
Hahahahaha Mark, You are awesome. (this statement has no alterior connotations to either confirm or deny any predictions/answer any questions).
When I first read this book I was about 10 or 11 and I hadnt developed my crazy analytical mind yet so any questions I might of had when reading I probably decided were obviously not important to the story and I just kept reading. In fact I probably wouldnt have ever read this book at all except that my best friend gave it to me for Christmas and kept nagging me to read it.
IN RESPONSE TO 14, IT'S ACTUALLY PARALLEL UNIVERSE SYBILL TRELAWNEY AND LYRA IS PARALLEL UNIVERSE VOLDEMORT, TRUFAX. PHILIP PULLMAN AND J.K. ROWLING WORKED ON THIS SERIES TOGETHER.
your username is amazing
Ha,haha, oh man TWENTY-EIGHT questions!? What a curious lad you are. I'm sure such flavorful details have nothing to do with us readers though. At least, I hope not; I forgot every one of them. Here's what I picked up:
The Lord whoever went north and found some weird stuff. He wants to go back, and is going back. The Master, however, does not want him to investigate.
We might not have needed SIXTEEN pages to set that up, but whatever. The only question I have is, how is the girl going to get involved, and how does she know when people are capitalizing ordinary nouns?
It's sort of like the Animal/animal distinction in Wicked. You have to be really carefull to pronounce that capital letter so no one gets offended! (I would probably be accidentally offending Animals all over the place)
And the deaf/Deaf distinction. So much potential for offence/confusion/mind-fuckery!
Can the Dust get offended? I'm watching a Dr. Who episode about the earth eating people, so I guess it can. Man, poor earth and its non-capitilizaion. What a world.
Ah, my dear fellow, you're going about it all back-to-front! Clearly it is capitalization which follows from articulation, in a paltry human effort to capture the dread portentousness that by paralanguage imbues each pronouncement!
Hells yes!
I loved the bit about hearing the capitalisation; it totally rang true for me. I remember my Dad telling a story about my grandfather, who could be very joyless and single-minded and overly serious, mixing concrete in order to lay the foundations for The Shed, which he was building to house The Bike, and thinking at the time that if I were writing down his speech I'd have to capitalise those words to indicate their importance.
She can sense the dread portentousness, of course! By jove, with this Gift she will be invaluable to the expedition! Quick––let us charge the aletheometers and make ready our thematic zeppelins! Northward!
So many questions that I WANT to answer but I CAN'T. Alas.
*goes for more popcorn*
So all these questions is exactly why I decided to read these books a couple weeks ago in anticipation of these reviews, because it is just so. much. fun to me to have all the answers.
I could never read a book a chapter a day. Even in school, I always ended up reading whatever book we were assigned twice. The first time at my own pace, devouring the thing in a day or three, and the second time going at the plodding pace the teacher set. A chapter or two a day? No way! I need to know what happens next, and anything that gets in the way is obviously not that important. Including sleep.
I can't read one chapter of something at once either, I get so absorbed in the story that I completely fail to notice that one chapter has ended and another has begun, despite the huge PAGE BREAK and TITLE IN CAPITALS. I remember thinking "I'll just finish this chapter and then go to sleep" and then suddenly noticing I'd read about four and it was an hour later.
YES!
Seriously when we used to read books in class and take it in turns reading a page at a time and I'd be like 50 pages ahead of everyone because I could not take slow pace. Then I'd be embarrassed when it was my turn to read and have no idea where everyone else was 🙁
I sahre your cunfusion absolutely. I have no idea where this seres is going or really whats happening right now. It took serious restraint not to read chapter 3 (yay I can go read it now haha). Anyways, I laughed out loud when "Dust" was introduced. Everybody was all mistified and I was thinking haha we have that everywhere.
I love Lyra. She's just so adventurous and its so obvious from the first page. Like how she wanted to see the head and wanted to go to the north (should that be capitolized?) with her uncle.
And poppy seeds! The scholars were getting high so they could discuss stufff. That was really interesting and now I'm wondering what sort of laws and legal system they have now.
I really confused on the whole daemon things. Lyra talks to her daemon but I haven't seen anybody else do it. And they change shapes now too? Then why couldn't the servants just change the shape of the daemon to look high class. Or do the daemons change themselves?
I re-read this chapter this morning and I just knew that your review would be beautiful. AND IT WAS. It also reminded me of why I love this series, much more than the first chapter did, I was sort of clapping my hands with glee and excitement every time I read "panserbørne" or "Skraelings" or "New Denmark" or any other references to the wonderful, amazing world Pullman has created. Man, I can't wait to read on.
10.One world isn't confusing enough for you?
13.Just so that you know, it's pronounced pan-ser-byorn (like Bjork, but bjorn). Just in case you didn't know. I didn't know when I read it.
14. Ha! When I tried to read it a third time at around 18 (I first tried when I was 13 and I don't think I finished the first chapter and at 17 didn't get much farther), I asked my brother, who somehow was able to read it straight through on his first attempt, the same question.
"I don’t even think I have anything to compare to this, as I’ve not read a book that so submerses me in a world and then refuses to define any of it as much as this."
Let me tell you, Mark, I felt so goddamn stupid when I attempted to read this book. I mean, it's for kids. Somehow, eight year olds were able to make sense of this and I was soo confused.
Also, my comment keeps scrolling up on its own. Why does it do that? That's really annoying.
I am reading the series along with you and already this one chapter at a time thing is KILLING ME!!! I'm used to eating through a book in a matter of hours!!
Also, I AM JUST AS CONFUSED AS YOU ARE MARK!! WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON!?!? WHAT ARE THEY TALKING ABOUT!?!?
Yay! I'm so excited for this! I've been so busy with school that I haven't been able to read The Book Thief or watch Avatar, but I've already read this trilogy! I now realize how much I've missed everything.
Patience grasshopper, patience. I love when authors give these details to you and let you figure out stuff on your own like this. Info dumps can be nice yes, but sometimes they can also be poorly done (see Twilight for example of poorly done info dumps) so I like it when authors figure their readers are smart enough to figure out details later on. Though I totally forgot how much stuff gets dumped in the first few chapters and I honestly couldn't even answer you even if it weren't for the spoiler thing cause I don't remember half this stuff. It's like I'm reading it for the first time, corny as that sounds.
I think the way that you’re reading might be very helpful with this series. I didn’t take any notes, so after this chapter my response was more like “HUH??” At least you know what you don’t understand, if that make sense.
This list gives me a frisson.
Trepanning is a word you can look up without being spoiled. Unlike most of these other words. It's a thing in our world.
I hadn't really noticed before this, but the non-explanatory explanation that Lyra gets here is pretty awesome. It's an infodump that sounds all exciting and conspiratorial but it's not an infodump you can actually do anything with for quite a while. So you spend a lot of time reading ahead to figure out what the heck is going on… oh, wait, you can't, WAH-WAH. Unprepared!
Oooh, Golden Compass. Might have to pull those/that (I don't even remember how many of those books I own.) book out and do the read-along. And figure out when you post so I can be part of the comment-frenzy. Or not. Eugh.
Anyways- as someone above said, trepanning- you can Google it an there won't be spoilers, because it's a real thing. But, since… I dunno, I think parts what you'd find are more important than others (I mean this in a non-spoilery way) I'll throw out a definition, which absolutely no one will proceed to read.
Trepanning is a medical and/or spiritual practice of drilling holes into the skull either to relieve pressure (caused by fluid build-up as a result of trauma, and possibly other things) or release evil spirits. It's still used in modern medicine today, and was first used medically (for a given value of medically) by the ancient Egyptians, who had a 50% survival rate. Considering that this is drilling holes into someone's head, treating a condition that would likely be fatal if untreated, and they didn't subscribe to germ theory, that's pretty damn good. On the spiritual side… I think the Celts were into it, but… that might be unreliable hearsay.
And NOW you understand why you were confused by the movie;)
the best part is that I have been desperately TRYING to remember the movie and aside from the polar bear fight I DON'T REMEMBER ONE BIT OF ANY OF THIS
wtf
Mark, I know you're a big fan of The Wire. Re-reading this is reminding me of re-watching that and spotting all the things that didn't stick in my head the first time around, which then jump out once you know what's going to happen later. It's a similar style of rapid immersion with little or no explanation.
Luckily, with both it's not like you have to remember every confusing detail in order to make sense of what happens later on. My re-reading tells me that I didn't really process all the information in these opening chapters, but I know that didn't really cause me any problems as the story developed.
And personally I like the feeling of being disorientated and slowly piecing things together. But for those who don't like it – the disorientation will fade, you can't sustain a novel by being continuously mystifying.
It does mean there's not much to say until things develop.
Also, at the risk of spoiling, three of your questions have real-world answers, so if you knew about these things in the world, they wouldn't be as confusing. I've labelled the links to not give anything away so DON'T CLICK THEM IF YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW.
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My mind has blown thinking about how you did this chapter at a time thing for Harry Potter. You are a man of IRON and STEEL O.o
I just want to point out that I first read this series in the 5th grade. One of my classmates challenged me to read it since it was the longest book in the classroom. I finished it within the week and went out and got the other two.
This and Chronicles of Narnia and fairytales were my favorites growing up.
My dad's a Jehovah's Witness, and a leader in his congregation. (And is still convinced Harry Potter taught me magic….even though he was the one who bought me the books in the first place)
My childhood was…weird.
BLESS THIS COMMENT FOREVER.
So I'm joining in. I read The Golden Compass like 3 years ago, but only remember vague parts and I never finished the other two, so I'll try and keep my insightful comments to a minimum on this first book for fear of accidentally spoiling.
Other than that, I have nothing to add. 🙂
I won't answer any questions, I will ask one.
After the trilogy, will you be reading the accompanying books? They were mentioned by name in other posts yesterday but I'll repeat them here: Lyra's Oxford, Once Upon a Time in the North, Lyra and the Birds. Just asking because I'll need to get them if you do.
Whoa, I didn't know there were others! I read Lyra's Oxford and forget what I thought of it. I'll have to keep my eye out for the others.
I haven't read Lyra and the Birds, but I love Once Upon a Time in the North. I'll elaborate on why on the spoiler blog.
The blog or the forum? I want to see it because I only have Once Upon a Time in the North. I want to get the other two if they're timed like that one.
*evil laugh* <— literal response
Some more than others.
I loved the whole Daemon idea
I AM ALSO CONFUSED. I AM NOT PREPARED.
I also appear to have chosen a *terrible* book to read for the first time via audiobook, because egads, some of these words/names/titles….
LOL no offense Mark, but having read the series already and know all the answers to your questions, I revel in your confusion 😀 All good things come to those who wait!
I don't remember the answers to most of these questions, but basically my reaction right now is MUST ACQUIRE HIS DARK MATERIALS BOOKS AND READ THEM AGAIN. MUST READ NAO. Because ugh, I'm starting to remember all the FEEEELINGS that I had when I read this series but I don't remember enough of the plot to discuss it at all.
Grr you and your questions. I want to answer them!!!!! But I will not. I shall wait and watch you find/figure out things as you read.
I hope you come to like this series. It is my favorite of all time. I shall not get defensive either (well maybe to myself but I won't in comments).
Can't wait for more reviews!!
Chapter 1: attempted assassination
Chapter 2: preserved head in a box
More books should start this way. Just sayin'.
I know it gets my attention!
I've been wondering the same thing. Can't wait for the joy of Mark Reads ASOUE!
I used the hell out of the dictionary function on my nook for the first book. At one point it was pretty much like leave me alone these words are crazycakes. I was going to read along with you but I'm already on the next book. I haven't found anything since Harry Potter to be so magical and fully realized. My daemon would totes be a panda.
If you're looking for something that's "magical and full realized", I'd suggest The Secrets of the Immortal Nicholas Flamel series. So far the first five out of six books are out, with the last one being released a year from now. So far we have" The Alchemyst, The Magician, The Sorceress, The Necromancer, and The Warlock. It's a very good series and one of my personal favorites.
I AM SO GLAD YOU ARE AS CONFUSED AS I AM. I just finished reading the chapter and it made me feel pretty dumb for being so confused. Now I feel better!
I'm really glad I'm reading along with you because otherwise I would have reached chapter 2, said, "Aw, heck no," and not touch the book ever again.
oh, I don't remember much of these. Must re-read. XD
Here, Mark, is some *(virtual)* tea. 🙂
Sit down, relax, and don't think about things too much! You don't have to understand every little thing. It would be didactic if mr pullman explained all details right off the bat. It would be "telling not showing." I know the picture is a little bewildering at the beginning, but seeing it all this way will be more fun in the long run! it's frustrating to read chapter by chapter, and there's probably not much else to talk about quite yet EXCEPT not knowing things 😛 but try to just enjoy the ride?
As for questions about scholars and rank, perhaps looking into the world of ancient british universities like those in the real Oxford would help. Maybe not with the titles, but just to know the context philip pullman is writing out of, it could clarify some things, so you're only confused about what you SHOULD be confused about. For instance, a "college" is different in the british context, I think, than the american one… though you probably know that already. I get the sense there's a lot of real-world arcane ritual in places like Oxford that pullman is probably riffing off of. Not that I know much about it myself, I'm the type of reader who just surmises things extremely vaguely (like "oh, I guess there are different types of scholars/professors of some kind…" and then I get distracted by the next thing, haha)
A coworker of mine is a YA librarian and she named her daughter Lyra (I assume after the character in the books), and she pronounces it Lie-ra, so I'm going with that.
This is what I love about this site, you ask questions I didn't even begin to think of. I am absolutely itching to open up the book and start on chapter three.
Anyway, my biggest comment here is OH HOLY SHIT I LOVE THAT WE JUST GOT THROWN FOR A LOOP. Seriously, I was all set to hate the Master for trying to poison Lord Asriel but now that has been called completely into question. I love, love it when this kind of stuff is all jumbled up in a moral grey area…makes me question my own opinions and I love that.
Until tomorrow!
Are you secretly my coworker Tiffany who named her daughter Lyra? Or is there a trend starting here?
I love all your questions, Mark! I CAN'T WAIT FOR YOU TO FIND OUT THE ANSWERS Except I can wait, because otherwise you would be SPOILED and that would SUCK.
I like how you have three exclamation points for the Master being named Charles. What?
I think it's interesting that after being in Lyra's head for so much of the first two chapters, we then veer off into first person omniscient to spy on the conversation between the Master and the Librarian. It makes us feel like we ARE Lyra, spying on a private conversation. I approve.
Hi Mark! I've been following along as you read The Hunger Games (Best series ever in my opinion) I was yelling YOU ARE NOT PREPARED THE WHOLE TIME. Then I read The Book Thief with you and I'm now reading The Golden Compass with you too. I had heard of this series when the movie came out but didn't see it and didn't realize it was actually a book series. When I saw that you were reading it I hit up the local used book store and I'm following along. I agree with all your questions here! I have no clue what is going on!
Oh Mark you're going to love these and also LOL trust me, I think everyone has those questions the first time through. But discovering the answers is SO MUCH FUN and takes like all three books, so ENJOY!C
panserbjørne
I was like… 10 the first time I've read this book. And I was really confused because of this. I mean, the spelling is kind of weird, but if you exchange *that1* with *that2* and derive *that3* from *that4*, so why is Lyra so clueless about the meaning of panserbjørne? It's like not knowing the meaning of teaspoon.
Some years later, I realized, that the english word doesn't resemble panserbjørne in any way. So good luck for your speculations, Mark. 😉
All I have to say is that in this list of questions you have sumed up the book in a nutshell. Bravo, Mark.
ALL YOUR QUESTIONS FILL YOU WITH SO MUCH JOY :'''''')
I just love these books so much, okay, and watching your mind explode is really, really fun. But, uh, obviously I need to go back and read them again because I didn't realize the infodump was so massive in the second chapter! I think I was just always confused by everything when I read this at the tender age of 10-ish, so I don't really have an appreciation for the kind of brain-breaking it inflicts on folks.
It's been so long since I read the books and my his dark materials-books are at my parents and now I can't read along and so couldn't answer half of your questions even if you wanted answers. Can't wait to see what you think of the series as it goes on.
yeahhhh those were basically my thoughts when I read this chapter…glad I wasn't the only one confused…
as an actor having been in the golden compass and other films inc elizabeth the golden age and children of men to name but a few i loved being chosen to play mrs coulters butler that part was filmed at hedsor house in taplow taking four days to film i got very attached to my bulldog daemon who was called spud and the standby bulldog winston im often asked about being in the golden compass and even asked for my autograph now and again im also a member of equity nicole kidman was very nice indeed to work with my equity name is andrew le brun
MR LE BRUN/HAVING SEEN YOUR PERFORMANCE IN THE GOLDEN COMPASS/EXCELLENT…ONE OF MY FAVORITE FILMS…THE TRILOGY WOULD BE COMPLETE…WITH THE NEXT FILMS????THANK YOU FOR THE INSIDE INFORMATION…BIG FAN…
Sooooo many questions!
I must say that I love worlds where what we'd call "science" is mixed with some other, equally valid course of study, like this world's philosophy (which involves instruments and experimentation). Of course, the real point of this chapter is to flaunt just how much we clearly don't know about this world. Dust? Severed children? Cities in the Northern Lights? WTF?!