In the thirteenth chapter of The Amber Spyglass, Will attempts to rescue Lyra in the midst of complete chaos, and is forced to deal with an unfortunate and horrifying reality because of it. Intrigued? Then it’s time for Mark to read The Amber Spyglass.
CHAPTER THIRTEEN: TIALYS AND SALMAKIA
It is so good to have Lyra back, and it is so good that Will has devoted himself to helping her out. It’s fascinating to me that here in chapter thirteen, you can see how they’ve sort of switched roles in the way they behave. Will is far more coarse and brash with everyone around them. Given that Lyra has been asleep for eleven and a half chapters, I do understand why she’s more serene here, but at the same time, it’s neat that she has allowed herself not to be the one primarily in charge. She still hasn’t given up that beautiful Lyra sass, though.
Will leaps into action immediately after the end of the last chapter by punching the golden monkey off his perch. He doesn’t even hesitate! That’s what Master Will is going to do, Mrs. Coulter.
Mrs. Coulter, on the other hand, is in a much worse position than I realized. As Chevalier Tialys orders Will to escape as quickly as possible, Mrs. Coulter lays on the ground, drowsy from the sting of the Gallivespian, tears in her eyes, and she cries out to Lyra. Again, I’m confused by this woman, because there’s such a genuine terror in her voice. I don’t know why it worries me so, especially since I still haven’t forgotten what an awful person she’s been in the past two books. But I can’t help it, and maybe I’m now under the spell of Mrs. Coulter. I feel bad for her. As soon as the sensation popped in my heart, I wanted to CRUSH IT. But when she screams after her daughter in that tear-filled voice, something didn’t feel right. Obviously, she has plans for Lyra that I don’t know about, but she framed it all as if she was begging Lyra not to leave her alone, that she might die without her daughter by her side. Was this a last minute cry of regret? Did she really fear death?
Will, shocked and hurt by all of this, knows that he can’t let Lyra, who is now crying herself, be affected by her mother’s tears, and he pulls her away from Mrs. Coulter, and they run off, following Chevalier Tialys, who orders them to give themselves up to the Africans in order to get out safely. Yeah, like Will’s going to do that.
Unfortunately, with the Gallivespians watching over them with those poisonous stingers they possess, Will pushes on. When the Swiss Guard shows up, Will cries out for Iorek Byrnison, but it’s not enough. For some reason, Balthamos doesn’t possess the power to stand up to the Swiss Guard and their wolf-dog dæmons and, sadly, he disappears off in the distance, leaving the three children behind. I can’t pretend to know what it’s like to experience the grief Balthamos is feeling, but I also can’t help but be disappointed that he would leave them behind. Knowing that Iorek is too far away to help, Will realizes he has but one choice left to make: He raises Mrs. Coulter’s pistol and fires at one of the Swiss Guard men, killing him with a shot to the heart.
Jesus christ, Will just killed another person. I know it’s necessary and I don’t have any desire to qualify it at all, but it’s still a shocking thing to read. As the two Gallivespians sting the other two soldiers dead, Ama splits off from Will and Lyra, and Will experiences a brief pang of relief that someone else will probably avoid the damage that is sure to come.
Once they are safe in the world Will opened before this all began, Will begins to retch from the horror of what he’s just done. I’m glad that Pullman writes about this. Well, wait, I’m not glad Will killed someone. I just mean that it’s good that he acknowledges the fact that a twelve-year-old boy just killed a man, and that even though he knows it was self defense, it still hold a moral weight that makes him sick to his stomach. I think it’s interesting, too, that Pullman states that Will “did not want this,†and it’s important to note that Will has been sent on a journey that now has little to do with seeking out his father. Will wanted to find his father, and when he did, the man was murdered in front of his eyes. Now he just killed another man himself, and he’s on this absurd journey to fight some battle with angels and a Lord Asriel (who he’s never even met), and all of it has to be overwhelming to the boy. How does he manage to pull this all off? I can only say that Will possesses a patience and a courage that is both rare and utterly inspiring.
And poor Lyra! She has no idea what the hell is going on. She gives Will some space to compose himself, and as the two begin to talk, a whole lot of doors are opened for possible plot points to explore in the future. Firstly, though, Lyra takes out the alethiometer to find out if it can tell Will a method to repair the subtle knife.
We don’t learn what reading it gives Lyra; she merely frowns at the instrument before asking Will if Iorek is nearby, telling him that the bear can do anything with metal. I’m kind of shocked I didn’t even make that connection, and given how fascinating Iorek was by the knife, I think it’s entirely possible that the bear will know a way to repair the knife.
The two friends begin to trade information because…shit, so much has happened since they last saw one another. Hasn’t it been less than a week’s worth of time? Maybe a week or two? Yet the entire world we had at the end of The Subtle Knife has been gloriously uprooted. Oh god, Lyra still doesn’t know that Lee Scoresby is dead. I don’t want to read that part when it comes. Of everything the two share, though, I’m most intrigued by this:
“All that happening, and I was asleep,†she marveled. “D’you know, I think she was kind to me, Will–I think she was–I don’t think she ever wanted to hurt me…She did such bad things, but…â€
AHHHHH NONE OF THIS IS HELPING ME FIGURE OUT MRS. COULTER. See, I’m willing to trust Lyra’s judgment on this, since….that is her mother. But then part of me thinks, “BUT THIS IS HOW MRS. COULTER SUCKS YOU IN! SHE TRICKS YOU INTO THINKING SHE CARES!!†But what if she actually does?? OH GOD I CAN’T. This is too hard MY POOR BRAIN.
But of everything in chapter thirteen, nothing makes me want to stand on my roof and shout about how everyone needs to read this series more than the land of the dead. Lyra relates the entire story of the “dream†she had, believing it to be more of a reality than just a vision, and Will asks her the greatest question ever.
Will said, “This place where the dead are. Is it a world like this one, like mine or yours or any of the others? Is it a world I could get to with the knife?â€
IS THIS REALLY HAPPENING. IS THIS A THING THAT COULD HAPPEN. Lyra consults the alethiometer and IT CONFIRMS IT IS A REAL WORLD THAT THEY CAN TRAVEL TO. I am so excited that I could puke. THEY ARE GOING TO TRAVEL TO THE LAND OF THE DEAD. Lyra propose the idea of rescuing people there, which…is that even possible? I mean…they’re dead. You can’t bring them back to life? Unless she means their souls, right? We know that in this series, heaven is basically a lie, that souls are just dumped in this place instead. Well, that’s as much as I understand it, and I’m interested to know more about it.
For the time being, though, Will concerns himself with the two Gallivespians, who haven’t left Will and Lyra’s side the entire time. It’s great to have sassy Lyra back, too, who promptly tells the two that she has no interest in going to see her father at all, since she doesn’t really trust him. She even laughs at the notion that these two could even force her to do this, but this offends them so much that Lady Salmaki grabs Pantalaimon. WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING. DON’T TOUCH HIM!
But then she saw that Will had swept up the man in his right hand, holding him tightly around the legs so he couldn’t use his spurs, and was holding him high.
Oh, Will, does your badassery know no bounds??? The answer is no. No, it does not. For when Chevalier Tialys lectures Lyra and calls her a “thoughtless, insolent child†for laughing when men died to save her, Will does not act as humble as Lyra does.
“As for you–†he went on, turning to Will.
But Will interrupted: “As for me, I’m not going to be spoken to like that, so don’t try. Respect goes two ways. Now listen carefully. You are not in charge here; we are. If you want to stay and help, then you do as we say. Otherwise, go back to Lord Asriel now. There’s no arguing about it.â€
MY GOD!!!! Will, what have you become? I would have expected Lyra to say something like this, but after everything this boy has been through, he realizes he cannot simply disappear anymore. So he gets the Gallivespians to agree to help them find Iorek Byrnison before heading off to meet with Lord Asriel. Though…they’re not going to do that, are they? Will and Lyra have a private conversation about the two Gallivespians, and while the situation is not ideal, Lyra assures Will that at the very least, they seem trustworthy and honest, and that Iorek Byrnison will mostly likely be able to help Will with the subtle knife.
The thing is…what choice do they have? Will and Lyra can’t really just run away from them, especially since the knife is damaged. The future is uncertain, yes, but at least I know that Will and Lyra are together know. Even Lyra is aware that they compliment each other well:
He was truly fearless, and she admired that beyond measure; but he wasn’t good at lying and betraying and cheating, which all came to her as naturally as breathing. When she thought of that, she felt warm and virtuous, because she did it for Will, never for herself.
I truly love this companionship, to be honest with you. I know that I would never have guessed we’d have two main characters in this series, and given how difficult their initial meeting was, I adore how close these two have grown together. If there’s a way that they can make it to their goal, I’m positive these two will figure it out.
" For some reason, Balthamos doesn’t possess the power to stand up to the Swiss Guard"
It's established pretty early in this book that because angels aren't corporeal, they are physically weaker than humans.
Gah, Will is the most badass of ever.
This is gonna be an unpopular opinion. I don't agree that it’s ''neat that she has allowed herself not to be the one primarily in charge'.I think it's kinda problematic that a male character is in charge of what was the female main character . I guess you could say it's part of Lyra's character development was to learn no to be in charge all the time but that's still problematic for a female character to learn to be less bossy and take orders from a male character. While Will's bossiness, which includes ordering around an billions year old being with enormous wisdom, is badass and not a character flaw.
We've been seeing things mostly from Will's perspective for most of the series now, he's more the main character now that she is. I'm just bothered by how much Lyra has become a passenger in what was her story.
OH MY GOD SHIT IS GETTING SO REAL ARE THEY SERIOUSLY GOING TO THE LAND OF THE DEAD??!! <3 <3 <3 I also kind of want a giant dragonfly….hmmmm
A couple of times this chapter felt a little TOO convenient. Like Will killing the soldier. It was his first time shooting a gun and he just HAPPENED to hit the guy’s heart. I could understand if Will wounded him but kill? But then again Will is the owner of the Subtle Knife, so maybe his ability to perfectly aim a gun on his first try shouldn’t be so surprising to me.
I’m also not entirely sure how I feel about this whole Lyra-Mrs. Coulter relationship that popped out of nowhere. I realize that Mrs. Coulter was never really out to get Lyra so it’s entirely plausible that she’s always had feelings for her daughter, she just never expressed them. I’m having trouble understanding Lyra’s new attachment to her mother who was never around and performed horrible experiments on children. It feels a little Stockholm Syndrome-y. I’m curious to see where this goes but I wish maybe Pullman developed/explained this change of heart.
I agree about Lyra and Mrs. Coulter. Just because I think someone may have been kind to me while holding me captive (although, I was in a drugged sleep so how do I even know?) doesn't change the fact that I've seen them do terrible terrible things, and then they held me captive. I mean, Lyra is young and this is incredibly overwhelming, and the idea of a mother-figure must be very appealing, but I don't think that's really enough to explain this. Of course, Mrs. Coulter does have an almost mystical way of attaching people to herself, so maybe that's the explanation…
It's definitely a bit hazy.
I don't think Lyra knows she was being drugged. She thinks Mrs. Coulter was just protecting her, not keeping her captive.
Also, if you look back to Mrs. Coulter's actions in The Golden Compass, she technically protected Lyra then too –from the Gobblers and then from the silver guillotine. Not saying she wasn't evil at the same time, of course, and not saying we know (or don't know) her motivations.
I do think Lyra knew she was being drugged (if not the details, just that she felt weird and had been sleeping waking up sleeping waking up sleeping…), although she may not remember those times when she would wake up a bit. It's not really stated or made clear, I don't think, but personally I think she must, because that would be her only real basis for being able to say she thought Mrs. Coulter was kind to her. If she didn't remember anything, she'd know nothing except waking up in a cave, right?
I totally agree that Mrs. Coulter's actions have been really ambiguous. Both she and Lord Asriel had a "not one of our own" sort of approach to their respective experiments. She saved Lyra from the silver guillotine and assured her that intercision would never happen to her (to which I LOVED Lyra's response…but if it's so great, why not?). Lord Asriel was horrified when he thought the world or the fates or whatever had "sent" him his own daughter to be his power source for bridging into the other universe. As long as it doesn't come too close to them, right? But that's what adds so much to the ambiguity–neither of them has hurt Lyra, and both have consistently protected her from the terrible things they themselves have done. They're incredibly interesting characters. At this point, I just can't stop turning Mrs. Coulter over and over in my mind.
It's also interesting, because Mrs. Coulter basically declares at the end of TSK that she's going to have to destroy Lyra, to prevent another fall – but when the time comes and she is able to, she DOESN'T. Instead of killing Lyra – the easiest way to destroy her – she drugs her and keeps her safe.
So I don't know Mrs. Coulter's motivations, but I suspect that Mrs. Coulter kidnapped Lyra with the full intention of killing her at the end of TSK…and then couldn't, probably because there does seem to be some sort of familial love going on between Mrs. Coulter, Lord Asriel, and Lyra, though it's twisted and warped on all three sides. So yes, she's ambiguous, and her motivations are unclear, but there's SOME sort of feeling there.
However, what exactly Mrs. Coulter is thinking…I definitely have to admit I am not sure.
Getting shot by a pistol doesn't make someone fall back "as if he'd been kicked by a horse" either. It's still a badass scene, though, and I liked that Will "expressed" his guilt. Thrilling AND consequential!
The part where the stalemate was resolved by Will just knocking the monkey over? Not so much.
If I remember right, I admit I might not, I believe it was Will who felt like he was "kicked by a horse" because of the gun's kick-back
Between Cracked and TVTropes, I can't take fictional guns seriously anymore. Now that I know they sound like firecrackers, don't make people fly backwards, aren't actually silenced by silencers, don't need to be cocked between shots, etc., it just takes me right out of the story. CATCH UP, WORLD.
Ha,ha,ha, yeah, I thought I knew it all until I saw that silencer one. I'm like WHAT THEY DON'T!? James Bond movies lied to me!?
Is it just me, or has Will been a little too… perfect… so far in this book? I mean, I'm all for badass characters, but he always seems to know exactly what to do, despite being 12 and having to make split-second decisions in some deeply weird situations.
The only other things I can think of are spoilers, so I'll leave it there for now.
I wouldn't say breaking the knife qualifies as perfect, exactly…
I agree. I love Will but so far he's a little too good at the things he does, which I think is why I was annoyed by his amazing gunmanship. He's still only 12 years old!
Dragonflies the size of seagulls scare the shit out of me. The first time I saw a normal sized dragonfly it scared me. But making them the size of birds? That's nightmare fuel right there.
I can never figure out the timeline here. How does Lyra manage to spend days and days in the cave when she and Mrs. Coulter really only had a ten hour at most head start on Will. How did they get there so fast?
Lyra is becoming more and more like Mrs. Coulter. She;s good at lying, stealing, and betraying. Those are her strengths and they aren't particularly virtuous. And I don't think that using them for Will's benefit is all that much better than Mrs. Coulter using them for her own benefit. Although maybe Mrs. Coulter is also becoming a bit more like Lyra; she certainly seems to care about her and to be doing everything on her behalf at this point. I think it's interesting that Pullman can create two characters who are similar in so many ways and make us cheer for one while despising the other. Quite the mother/daughter pair they are. I can only imagine what would have happened if Lyra had grown up under Mrs. Coulter's influence or if they managed to team up.
I am super excited for the land of the dead. Can we go there now? Please?
The body-daemon-ghost is an interesting take on the body-spirit/soul-mind that I've seen more often. It'll be interesting to see where Pullman takes that.
Not to fuel the nightmare too much, but giant dragonflies have a basis in reality. There are fossil dragonflies (~300 million years old) that have a 2.5 foot wingspan.
OMG, I know! I'm just glad they're extinct now.
Well, interestingly enough (warning paleontology nerd alert), arthropods breath through their exoskeletons. The bigger they get, the less surface area they have for their overall mass, therefore giant bugs would suffocate in today's world. If there was more oxygen in the atmosphere (like it was 300 million years ago), bigger bugs could still get enough oxygen even with lower amounts of surface area, such as the previously mentioned dragonflies or 10 foot long millipedes.. This means that if the atmosphere changes in the future we could have big bugs again (unfortunately, oxygen concentrations are lowering with the addition of more carbon dioxide).
Very cool. I wonder what all the greenhouse gases mean for the bugs alive now. Are they going to keep getting smaller? Or is the environment adapting to rapidly for them to evolve? Dragonflies don't have particularly long generations, do they?
Lab studies show that most insects grown under low oxygen conditions are significantly smaller. A few groups have additional respiratory structures, so they are not as influenced by oxygen levels. So if the oxygen levels drop, so would terrestrial arthropod size. Insect lifespans are quite short (a few months) so they could potentially evolve very quickly, if there was a strong selective pressure toward larger body size.
Another study showed that this is in fact what happens, that the evolution of the respiratory structures can occur quite quickly (in the lab). The size of the small respiratory openings in their exoskeleton ( tracheae) would increase in a few generations when the insects (fruit flies) were grown in low oxygen conditions.
Here is the article I just found regarding this issue: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC28800…
Thanks for sharing all of this! It's really cool 🙂
I love this thread! I never knew all of this about insects.
I love dragonflies! I think they're beautiful, and even as a kid I'd be so delighted when they'd land on me! But when I was a camp counselor, my little kids were terrified of them! I've never understood that…is it just the name? Who knows 🙂
I grew up in Colorado which doesn't have very many bugs and nothing bigger than a mosquito (at least where I lived). The first time I saw a dragonfly was when I was 23 and it flew straight into my face and was this huge, monstrous, alien thing. Like 3 inches long, which is way bigger than any bug I'd ever seen before. I nearly jumped out of my skin.
Hahaha, oh wow, fair enough, I suppose in that situation I'd have been rather petrified as well!
isn't it good luck when they land on you? or maybe that's butterflies…
I love dragonflies too! I think they're really adorable in a weird way <3
I'd always heard that was ladybugs
I've heard that about ladybugs too
really?? I've never heard that! I was told that if butterflies or dragonflies land on you it's good luck, if you kill a ladybug it's bad luck, and if you step on a bunch of ants you'll make it rain (my cousin may have made that one up on her own)
lol, I've heard that butterflies and ladybugs landing on you are good luck, as are dragonflies in general. Actually, I think just seeing a ladybug is good luck, too. And if they land on you, you're supposed to shoo them with the "ladybug, ladybug, fly away home" rhyme. Yay, folklore about insects!
Psh, squashing ladybugs might be bad luck, but have you ever been in a house when the ladybugs are out? One warm day in an otherwise cool season and suddenly there are dozens of the little suckers in your house, appearing out of nowhere. I mean, not that they're really harmful, but it can be annoying when the air is suddenly flooded with them.
We had an invasion of them a few years ago here in Wisconsin! They were really annoying, and their bodies stuck to everything. Someone even stuck a few on a building as some kind of artistic statement, or something.
I think it's the enormous eyes that can SEE INTO YOUR SOUL! And maybe the weird pincher-mouth. But mostly the eyes.
Dragonflies are wonderful, they are beautiful and eat mosquitoes. What more could you ask for in a bug? I feel the same way about bats.
I quite agree. All the best virtues of a bug combined!
Still, I can't argue they are a little uncanny. Maybe it's because they remind me of small flying people, but not.
SO. MUCH. WORD. They're beautiful and they eat my archenemies the mosquitoes. They are flawless, therefore.
I like spiders. They also eat mosquitoes and they can't fly. I think that's what I want out of a bug
I dunno, spiders have too many legs for me to be comfortable around them. Also, their ninja skills mean you can never be 100% sure what they are going to do.
Bats are adorable. They have teeny fox faces!
I do love their colours. Funnily enough, my mom adores dragonflies, I bought her one carved from a red stone a few months back and it came with a card describing the attributes of people who have the dragonfly as a spirit animal, and it sounded a lot like my mom. 😛
I honestly have nothing against dragonflies, they do weird me out less than milipedes and centipedes, and they look pretty over the frog pond. 😀
And bats are pretty awesome.
ME TOO. I think they are absolutely gorgeous and I'm utterly fascinated by them. I would love to have one land on me. <3
I kind of hate dragonflies too… the little pretty blue and green ones are okay, as long as they stay away from me, but the big ones? UGGHHHHHH GROSS. I used to be a lifeguard and there would always been dragonflies hanging around the pool, and sometimes I'd see a pair flying around while mating =( So, so gross ><
I wouldn't say that the Lyra-Mrs.Coulter relationship popped out of nowhere. Remember in TGC Lyra spent quite some time in London being fascinated by Mrs.Coulter (until the slapping incident). Also, Mrs.Coulter did save Lyra and Pan from being severed. And as it says in this chapter, Mrs.Coulter is the only mother Lyra has. So although she knows of horrible things that Mrs.Coulter has done and (rightly) doesn't trust her, I don't find it unbelievable that Lyra has some emotional attachment to her mother.
"My darling daughter – you're tearing my heart…"
That line just *does* something to you, doesn't it? Pullman, you evil genius you, making us pity the lady who cut daemons away from children. Just goes to show you that nothing in this entire series is black-and-white.
As for Will and Lyra, the more they come together the more they take over traits from one another and develop their own traits to benefit the other even more. It's a perfect partnership. More than missing Lyra, I missed Lyra with Will.
As James said above, angels aren't strong. Baruch died. Will killed that angel by slashing his wings. Will is only 12 and can order his two angel guides around because he has real flesh, which is much stronger than angel flesh. I don't think it's really all that surprising that Balthamos ran away. He was never a fighter; he was the sassy gay angel guide. I was actually surprised (and touched) that he tried to protect Will in the first place.
I'm glad Lyra's back, I've missed her. As much as I adore Will, I think their friendship is beautiful and compelling.
So, I just got back from a mini vacation, visiting some friends, which meant I missed the last two posts, which was sad. But I have a story to share. I went to a club and there was a band playing that was going to be at Lollapalooza. Their music was pretty chill so we were trying to figure out their name on the club's website. As I was scrolling through, I noticed there was a performer at this place named LYRA BELACQUA. I'm not sure if this woman was a singer or a dancer or whatever, but she chose such an epic stage name and I kinda wanted to meet her. The end.
Is anyone else SUPER SUPER EXCITED for the day when Mark finally finds out that *MASSIVE ROT13'D SPOILER* gur tebhaq ernyyl jvyy bcra hc naq fjnyybj Zef Pbhygre? 😀 D:
Hey! You're right! I think I'll be cheering the day we see that. 😀
BAhahahaha! YES! I am so very excited for that!
V svtherq bhg gung ebg13 ol zlfrys jvgubhg gur jrofvgr gb uryc! (Naq glcrq guvf gbb!)
But yes I've been remembering exactly which previous Mark review to point back to when that happens!
I am impressed with your leet skillz.
At one point I wrote a computer program that would translate everything I typed to rot13 in realtime so that nobody could read my screen but me. The downside was… I couldn't read it either!
Now that rot13 is becoming so common on Mark Does Stuff sites I'm starting to re-teach myself the rot13-reading skills I got at that point. I never got as far as being able to read it fluently, though.
YES! I had the exact same thought jura Znex svefg fnvq gung!
Oh, yes! Blobba blo zom gleeb! (®£ª!! …¢™)
This made me snicker, but then want to rot13 it just to be sure you hadn't written something.
Ha,ha,ha. I have no idea what this is or when it started. It just looks so absurd. And come on––Mark has a special deal with some huge web site for the specific purpose of housing spoilers. Why talk about it here, even in code?
…because it's a pain to go and have a discussion that started on one site and continue it on another? Seriously, I don't want to navigate somebody else's forum (and sign up for that forum) just to continue a discussion started in the comments here. I'm pretty sure this is the reason why the spoiler forums on this site are almost never posted to– it's just a hassle and no one checks them.
I believe it is just to mess with me* so that I get confused when I read it as English.
Honestly someday I wish I would be able to read rot13 as a language without any outside help/translating.
*Not really because that would be really self centered 😛
But then you would be spoiled for everything! 🙂
pshaw! I laugh in the face of spoilers, Ha Ha Ha Ha.
<img src="http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p150/Falcon823/i74950984_81634.gif">
Really though I don't mind them, its not the result but the journey and even if you know whats coming you don't know how or why or when.
Yeah, there is something to be said for Mark-style viewing, but on the other hand I watched Buffy starting at season 5 (FX aired it twice a day and that's what season they were on when I started watching), so I was spoiled for most of the major events of the series, but it didn't make watching the earlier seasons any less delightful.
The gallivespians are very interesting. Of all the info we have about them, I like the fact that they stick to each other, they don't risk their lives unnecessarily and keep together through all. So far, the Chevalier has shown the most propension for feeling offended by these children and the Lady seems calmer most of the time and, like Will and Lyra, they seem to complement each other very well for the job. I don't know if it's them or their species as a whole is truly that kind of badass team workers all the time, I can't decide which. Anyway, being born into that species must be great.
Mrs Coulter is something I can't decide what to think of myself either. I think I can ascribe that to Pullman and his way of describing her. It's as if he can't or won't decide it himself, so he won't put it down into his composition, and I think that by now you know if he wants something to be understood he will put it into the composition at one point or another. For Marisa Coulter, I haven't found any consistent behaviour yet I can take as her true personality or motivations, she always seems to do one thing and say the opposite at the same time with no conflict in her mind about it like regular people would experience. I'm kind of reminded of Azula's great lying skills that even Toph couldn't tell the difference between truth and lie when she spoke.
But here's the difference between Azula and Mrs Coulter. We know Azula was a sociopath, which is how she can lie so convincingly without showing emotions; Azula doesn't have emotions to cause any conflict in her mind about it. Azula is the definition of sociopathy, including that bit at the end of the series. Mrs Coulter, on the other hand, is an enigma. She could have a personality lacking emotions just as much as she could be a person who feels everything. She acts out everything so convincingly we can't tell. Everything in herself is a lie. What we don't know is whether every feeling and emotion in herself is also a lie. We were told before she was hiding from her own eyes. She could be hiding her feelings, or she could be hiding her lack of feelings. That's what's so intriguing about her, and so appealing at the same time. I think many of us want to find out what she's hiding so we can decide whether to hate her for it or not; many would like to base their likes and dislikes in a motive. But Pullman won't give us a fracking clue, and if he does, he gives hints on both sides so we can never decide.
Personally, I've got my own views on Marisa Coulter but I won't tell you. Everyone must decide on their own. It's all based on your own morality I believe and nothing more than yourself will take that decision.
Sociopathy is *not* a lack of emotions (or anything like that at all) and I'd say it's fairly clear Azula has emotions, since we see her get angry, upset and passionate about things quite frequently. Do you mean positive emotions or empathy or something?
I got this from Wikipedia for brevity:
Is that a better description than lack of emotions? Is this a good description for Azula? Even perhaps for Mrs Coulter, but I can't tell yet.
WILL PUNCHED OZYMANDIAS.
I do not condone violence to animals (or women or men or children) but when that happened, I may have punched the air and screamed in triumph.
<img src="http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f155/Starsea/Doctor%20Who/Who%20Macros/eclecticmuse-CelebrationDance.gif">
I feel like after being drugged and asleep for that long, it would take Lyra time to get back to her normal self. I don't think Will's 'too perfect' in this chapter because he does things that no twelve year-old should have to do: rescue a girl from her own mother, KILL a man, stop someone from abusing Pan..
I'm glad Lyra's awake because he's been through hell and someone needs to take some of the weight off his shoulders.
Is his name really Ozymandias? because, I'm not gonna lie, that is SUPREMELY FRACKING AWESOME.
"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
As far as I know, it's fanon. But I could be wrong.
From what I've heard it was added by some adaptation, maybe a radio version or the play?
Personally, I don't like it as a name for the monkey at all. The monkey is *awful in every way ever*, but the name Ozymandias conjures up one *specific* vice, hubristic pride. If there's anyone in HDM that is defined by hubris, it's Asriel, not the monkey.
I don't know what name would be appropriate to him (ugh, even using the pronoun 'him' feels wrong, like it should be 'it') but Ozymandias seems particularly wrong to me.
I rather like the fact that Pullman left the monkey completely unnamed. Damn dirty ape.
The monkey is *awful in every way ever*… I don't know what name would be appropriate to him (ugh, even using the pronoun 'him' feels wrong, like it should be 'it')
Pennywise? XD
It was added by another adaptation; Pullman kind of specifically made sure never to give the golden monkey a name, because it makes him that much creepier.
I always thought it was weird that we knew the name of other people's daemons (including Roger's) but we never know the monkey's. Unless it doesn't even have one.
It was added by the BBC Radio 4 adaptations. And I kind of like it too.
Awesome gif. 🙂
"I don't think Will's 'too perfect' in this chapter because he does things that no twelve year-old should have to do: rescue a girl from her own mother, KILL a man, stop someone from abusing Pan.. "
That's the entire point, though; he does those things *successfully,* and taken all together it's a little much for me. Sure, he breaks the knife, but we already have a pretty good idea that Iorek will be able to fix it. So even a mistake that should be horribly awful isn't going to actually cost him anything. Your mileage may vary, of course, but that's how I reacted to the chapter.
I do see what you're saying. I saw most of that as sheer blind luck, personally.
And it's a great GIF, love Matt and Karen.
Mrs. Coulter is just super complicated at this point in the story. I do feel bad for her, and I do think she has some genuine motherly affection towards Lyra, or at least, she loved the idea of caring for Lyra and sheltering her like a mother should, but… yeah, she is still a nasty piece of work and a terrible person, and even if she feels bad now, that doesn't excuse her past actions at all.
I always end up comparing it to the relationship between Rapunzel and Mother Gothel in Tangled, although Mother Gothel may or may not be as terrible a person as Mrs. Coulter. And if you haven't watched that movie already, seriously, check it out, it's really good.
Love Tangled! And yeah, the relationship in that is kind of similar. You're never quiiiite sure how they really feel about each other, and how much is just manipulation/learned behaviour.
In rot13 because Mark mentioned he hadn't seen Tangled yet:
V qb guvax gung Tbgury pnerf nobhg Enchamry ng yrnfg fbzrjung, ohg vg'f nyfb rdhnyyl boivbhf gung fur zbfgyl pbafvqref ure na bowrpg– pbafvqre nyy gur gvzrf fur pnyyf ure 'Sybjre' vafgrnq bs ure anzr, naq V crefbanyyl nyjnlf sbhaq gur 'V ybir lbh zbfg' rkpunatr ERNYYL perrcl naq pbagebyyvat naq irel gryyvat nobhg jub unf gur cbjre va gur eryngvbafuvc. :/ Gur jubyr zbivr ernyyl fubjf bss Tbgury'f gnyragf nf n znfgreshyyl fxvyyrq rzbgvbany nohfre naq znavchyngbe. V qba'g xabj gung fur'f dhvgr nf rivy nf Zef. Pbhygre, vs bayl orpnhfr fur arire jrag nebhaq evccvat puvyqera'f fbhyf ncneg va gur anzr bs eryvtvba, ohg fur vf pregnvayl pbzcyrgryl ehguyrff naq jvyyvat gb qb whfg nobhg nalguvat gb xrrc pbageby bs gur zntvp. Nygubhtu, Tbgury vf ng yrnfg frireny praghevrf byq, naq jr unir ab vqrn jung fur qvq qhevat nyy gung gvzr orsber fur ybpxrq Enchamry va gur gbjre.
(Zl sevraq naq V unir n crefbany urnqpnaba gung fur jnf gur pevzr obff sbe gur ragver xvatqbz, ohg gung'f whfg hf.)
V jnf fhcre vzcerffrq ol Gnatyrq, orpnhfr V arire rkcrpgrq gb frr n fpnevyl npphengr cbegenlny bs na rzbgvbanyyl nohfvir zbgure-qnhtugre eryngvbafuvc va n yvtugurnegrq Qvfarl zbivr. Irel jryy qbar.
As soon as the sensation popped in my heart, I wanted to CRUSH IT.
YEP, PRETTY MUCH.
Seriously though, how does Pullman keep doing this? It's so difficult to figure Mrs. Coulter out, and I've already read the damn book! It's like he enjoys seeing me going
<img src="http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/ad250/baasaysthelamb/gifs%20and%20reaction%20imgs/tumblr_l820gkMN6Q1qcs2rc.gif">
<img src="http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_logdq9W2ap1qb797b.gif">
And he's all
<img src="http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x395/iHopeless_Romance/DealWithIt.gif">
JESUS CHRIST MY BODY IS NOT READY.
I actually find it really interesting that we all have this kind of idea about angels being strong…it's weird because so far in this series what we've seen of Balthamos shows that he's a quite a physically weak, non-fighter character, but somehow because of the word 'angel' it's hard to shake that subconscious impression of an all-powerful being who has no right to cut and run.
I love how Pullman is really just flipping our preconceptions on their heads.
Yeah, I thought that sarcasm could beat anything. 🙁
I always loved how he did angels in this series for that very reason… it makes for a really unique take, and I always wished they'd been introduced a bit earlier so we could have seen more of them.
Personally, I hate that Lyra is suddenly humble, and that she's not in charge anymore. I miss the Lyra of TGC, and one of the issues I have with this trilogy is that it bothers me a lot that she takes such a backseat to Will. One of the things that attracted me to the series was Lyra, because I love strong female characters, and I prefer reading about female protagonists, so even though I do like Will, it was deeply disappointing and frustrating for me to see Lyra turn into this. It's very problematic, IMO.
As for Mrs. Coulter, I do think she genuinely cares about her daughter, she just… goes about showing it the wrong way. She has no clue how to be a good parent, and she's done some pretty horrible things to other children. I can't entirely sympathize with her for many reasons, but I do find her interesting.
I interpreted her 'humility' as just an act. Seconds later she talks about deceit, but more specifically that Will knows nothing about it; he has made the Gallivespians enemies instead of guardians that they could have slipped away from much easier. I also don't feel like Lyra acting subservient is consistant with the rest of the novel, but that's a discussion we'll have later.
Another thing to note is that she's been awake for one chapter, and her reactions are very much up for interpretation, so I don't think it's fair to make the submissive conclusion yet. And on top of which, one of the first things she does is tell Will what she wants to do next.
I agree on Mrs Coulter, though. I always think back to her horror when she noticed Lyra was about to be severed. That wasn't the reaction of an unfeeling monster, even if she became instantly manipulative again after. She seems to be genuinely doing the right thing by Lyra though, which considering what she's done is scary in and of itself.
YES SO MUCH.
When she felt virtuous about lying — it's okay if it's for Will — my first thought was, "Oh, great, it's the 'he for God, she for God in him' horseshit from Paradise Lost." You lie, Lyra! That's what you do; that's why you're called "Silvertongue"! Feel virtuous because you bested a motherfucking armored-bear king in his own palace by your words alone! You don't need Will as your source of virtue!
She's just gotten less and less interesting, and I am sad. How often do we get a female Chosen One? Who has kickass adventures and friends and victories? And then a boy shows up, and it's pretty much out the window. 🙁
I don't know about "chosen ones" but the YA genre is skewed fairly heavily towards female protagonists right now. The paranormal/urban fantasy genre also features almost all female leads. Granted the latter sometimes edge a bit into romance, most of them still keep the heroine pretty kickass even after she inevitably falls for the werewolf/vampire/ghost/zombie/etc.
Eh. There's a lot of really skeevy YA with female protagonists, though. I mean, it's better than it's ever been before, don't get me wrong, but it's far from any kind of haven. The stories often end up reinforcing some pretty bad gender essentialist stuff. It is kind of interesting to compare what might have been the norm when these came out to now, though… the female protagonist thing feels pretty recent to me.
Oh, I won't deny there's a lot of crap out there. I mean, Twilight alone is a pretty massive list of fail despite having a female protagonist. However I feel like there has been some progress made just because there are so many female MC's out there now, as opposed to the previous assumption in fantasy/sci-fi that your MC was always going to be male and women were mostly just there for sex. This is one reason I have a hard time reading 'classic' sci-fi: Asimov and Clark were good concept writers, but their characters are paper-thin and their women are actually worse. Not that that doesn't still happen, but I see it as encouraging that there are sections of writing where you are likely to find more female protagonists than male.
The original comment though was like "well when do we ever see kickass girls in fiction?" and my response is "actually pretty often."
I said "female Chosen Ones." It's the specific trope I'm referring to: the savior of the world/universe/whatever, the one in prophecies, the blessed child come to end our miseries, etc. etc. That's very often male, not female, in fiction and in myth (and religion, for that matter).
Plenty of kickass girls in fiction? You bet. But not ones who fulfill prophesy to save the world and have the story centered around that and around them.
Eh. I guess it doesn't bother me because I'm pretty much done with the whole "chosen one" story line anyway, male or female. If I flip open a book and see anything about a 'dark force' or a prophecy or a chosen one, I close that book and walk away.
Oh, no doubt! I do the same thing. I'm old and jaded, my God, am I ever. But when I was a kid, just getting into reading? It would've meant the world to me to have read books where a girl like me is the special one who's going to save the world. It's still not common, and it's 2011! Progress is so slow, dammit.
I want those girls coming after me to have a more balanced, enriched world-view than I did. I want them to see themselves, in all their varied shapes and colors and sizes and personalities, in the media they're exposed to, including literature. I want them to have a Lyra, and right now, with some of TSK and going into this book, I feel like Pullman is holding her just out of arm's reach while holding out Will for us to admire instead.
You should read Mistborn…
It's in my queue! So little time…
Oooh, I didn't even think of that, but true. Lyra has ALWAYS had rightful pride in her lying skills- after all, why feel bad about something that lets her survive? The idea she suddenly is OK with it as "good" because it's to help Will ties in with some… kind of nasty female-self-sacrifice-is-so-romantic themes.
“As for me, I’m not going to be spoken to like that, so don’t try. Respect goes two ways."
I literally punched the air at that passage… I hate it so much when people of a supposedly higher authority demand respect without giving some themselves… it sets my teeth on edge so often in real life, so I really enjoyed Will standing up to them here…
I seriously do not care that Will might be "too perfect", I love me some truly badass character…
As to the land of the dead? So much excite!
That's a possibility I hadn't considered. Given Lyra's tendency to lie, it's really hard to get a handle on her when we're in someone else's point of view. I want a chapter from her perspective soon.
Yeah, this is why Lyra AND Mrs. Coulter are so ambiguous in some ways – we're seeing Will's POV of them, but that's only the outside, not what's actually in their heads.
I'm attempting a gif spam again:
Mrs. Coulter's pleading to Lyra?
<img src="http://chzgifs.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/thanks-bro.gif">
Balthamos pulling a big damn heroes moment!
<img src="http://chzgifs.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/243c24ea-8ec5-4578-83f9-2b017f741da9.gif">
Then Balthamos punks out on them!
<img src="http://chzgifs.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/zergling-cat.gif">
You're telling me Iorek's going to repair the Knife? Fuck yea.
<img src="http://chzgifs.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/sissylightsaberfightp1.gif">
Lyra whole speech about wanting to help Roger
<img src="http://chzgifs.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/baby-learns-the-sad-truth.gif">
The whole talk about the "ghost" or whatever
<img src="http://chzgifs.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/funny-gifs-wax-on-wax-owl.gif">
Lyra not trusting Asriel after the shit he pulled
<img src="http://chzgifs.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/flying-squirrel-wrestling-move.gif">
Will being bad ass towards the Gallivespians' intimidation tactics
<img src="http://chzgifs.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/vengeanceforallthetimeshewascalledasausagep1.gif">
Chevalier's speech to Lyra about respect?
<img src="http://chzbronies.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/memes-yeah.gif">
When I found out that Mrs. Coulter's not going to die from the poison
<img src="http://chzgifs.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/heycomebackp1.gif">
omg epic gifs. THAT TIGER
Oh my god, that tiger. That Pinkie Pie gif.
The Pinkie Pie gif is one of my favorites ever. Along with a number of Haters Gonna Hate Pinkie gifs.
that was some really quality wrestling.
I don't want my comment to get lost in the super large thread up above, but thank you to the many folks discussing how bizarre/problematic it is for Lyra to take a backseat to Will in this book. It totally is weird and if it wasn't for the many fine points you folks have made, I probably would not have seen it at all.
ALSO BOOOO TO PEOPLE TRYING TO SHAME US FROM HAVING AWESOME CONVERSATIONS party poopers not allowed here
Thanks, Mark! I love the conversations here, and I'm glad we're committed to having them. I don't comment on many internet places because, y'know, internet places. This place is different! (And now "place" totally looks weird to me after having typed it so much. I keep mentally pronouncing it with two syllables.)
I'm just learning more and more why my favorite in the trilogy is The Golden Compass.
I took what happened with her and Will as her kind of learning how to be around another person and because she cares a lot about him and what he thinks, she took the submissive thing to far. I mean, you do have to submit a little when you coexist with someone, but I don't like that she needs permission to look things up on the alethiometer. Does Will need her permission to use the subtle knife? That'd be fair.
Hopefully she'll be back to her old self a little. I don't even remember the details of what happens next gubhtu bar rknzcyr qbrf fcevat gb zvaq bs ure gnxvat vavgvngvir. gung pbhagf sbe fbzrguvat.
To add on that submissive part: maybe she's trying to work on being only being active for a purpose. And sometimes people go from one extreme to the next. They tend to kind of even out eventually.
V ernq n ybg bs gur guernq nobhg Ylen naq vg frrzrq yvxr fbzr bs vg jnf vzcylvat gung fur qbrfa'g trg orggre sebz urer. Vg ybbxrq yvxr crbcyr jub ernq gur obbxf jrer pbzzragvat ba Ylen'f orunivbe abg whfg hc gb guvf cbvag, ohg hagvy gur raq bs gur fgbel naq gung gur byq Ylen jnf sbe fher tbar.
Be nice if we had some insight into her thought processes. She started to be self-reflective in TGC; no reason why she can't be thinking about why she's acting differently now. (Except for the "being drugged for 13 chapters" part, of course.) I want insight when characters change! I want to ~understand~.